Biocarburanti: da rifiuti a energia
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CORDIScovery podcast- Episode #26 - Biofuels: from waste to energy
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:10:05 - 00:00:16:00
Abigail Acton
This is CORDIScovery.
00:00:16:01 - 00:00:45:07
Abigail Acton
Hello and welcome to this episode of CORDIScovery with me, Abigail Acton. The United Nations report, published in March 2023, is very clear when it says: “in this decade, accelerated action to adapt to climate change is essential to close the gap between existing adaptation and what is needed. Meanwhile, keeping warming to 1.5 degrees C above pre-industrial levels requires deep, rapid and sustained greenhouse gas emissions reductions in all sectors.
00:00:45:09 - 00:01:05:10
Abigail Acton
Emissions should be decreasing by now and will need to be cut by almost half by 2030 if warming is to be limited to 1.5 degrees C”. So today we're looking at biofuels and their role in helping us to meet those goals. A biofuel is a fuel that comes from biomass frequently produced as an organic waste from other processes.
00:01:05:10 - 00:01:25:21
Abigail Acton
Biomass themselves can be hard to dispose of heading for landfill or incineration, using the waste as an energy source is particularly elegant. You take the waste that is all too often part of the problem when it comes to disposal and you break it down to get gas, which is then used as fuel. Neat,
00:01:25:23 - 00:01:49:09
Abigail Acton
Here to talk through what can be used, how it's done, and what the result can be are three people involved in projects which have received EU support. Petteri Salonen is the CEO of Finrenes, a Finnish company that is working on turning wood and plant fiber waste into biomethane and fuel pellets. They have a new approach to breaking down fiber, often agricultural waste, which is attracting attention globally.
00:01:49:11 - 00:01:51:03
Petteri Salonen
Hello, Abigail. It's nice to be here.
00:01:51:06 - 00:02:11:02
Abigail Acton
Lovely to have you. Yeray Asensio is based at the Spanish water management company Aqualia's Department of Innovation and Technology. His expertise is in wastewater treatment bioenergy generation using bio electrochemical and electrochemical technologies to extract energy from sewage sludge. Welcome, Yeray.
00:02:11:07 - 00:02:12:19
Yeray Asensio
Hi, everyone.
00:02:12:21 - 00:02:32:23
Abigail Acton
Head of the biotechnology unit at the Institute of Advanced Studies in Madrid. Cristina Gonzalez is particularly interested in recovering carbon from waste for the production of biochemicals and biofuels within the idea of the circular economy. Cristina is also involved in stress testing systems to see what goes wrong when and how to fix it. Hi Cristina.
00:02:33:04 - 00:02:34:22
Cristina González
I thank you for having me.
00:02:34:24 - 00:02:52:19
Abigail Acton
You're very welcome. I'm going to turn to Petteri now. Battery Biofuel Fab is a project conducted by Finrenes. Can you tell me a little bit about what's wrong with the way that we currently use things like wheat stalks and other agricultural plant waste and treat chippings? What are we doing wrong at the moment?
00:02:52:21 - 00:03:22:03
Petteri Salonen
Well, what we are mainly doing wrong is that we are doing actually quite nothing with those. So in agriculture these draw the edible part of the plant explored back to the field to release the nutrients. And when these straw decays it releases methane to the atmosphere, which is bad for the climate. In a nutshell, we are not seeing what valuable resources we have around and we consider them as a waste.
00:03:22:09 - 00:03:36:20
Petteri Salonen
Instead, we should have a look at those and identify that the Good grief it's a valuable resource. It's available everywhere in large quantities, and it may be one of the keys in winning this fight against the climate change.
00:03:36:21 - 00:03:53:08
Abigail Acton
Right. Absolutely. And I mean, obviously, we've also I suppose all of us have seen large sort of fields of arable plants being burnt after they've been harvested as well. I mean, I know that that's something that's very controversial, but I myself have certainly seen large fields being burnt after sunflowers, for example, and so on.
00:03:53:10 - 00:04:17:20
Petteri Salonen
That is true, especially in India. They have four harvests a year and the time between the harvest and the next blow is only two weeks. So what do they do? They are not very rich. Those are farmers. So they put kerosene. The fields and burn it. And you can read from the newspapers that in New Delhi area, especially winter, the pollution in their air is awful.
00:04:17:21 - 00:04:24:20
Petteri Salonen
So that's really awful for me. Or that they are burning money. I care about the climate, but I also care about money.
00:04:24:22 - 00:04:47:11
Abigail Acton
Yeah, you're there far enough. And I mean, it's Yeah, absolutely. So that's lose lose. We often say win win, that's lose lose. Okay. So now, yes, having established that we are wasting these resources and sometimes in a way that is very destructive to the environment and what is new about this, the approach the Biofuel Fab first developed, Can you tell me a little bit about how you process this to make it more accessible?
00:04:47:13 - 00:05:09:24
Petteri Salonen
Yes, we break the structure, rebuilding the cellulose. If we go to the science. The selling of cellulose consists of three main compounds. One is cellulose, which can be turned to energy and cellulose, which can be turned to energy and linen, which is Mother Nature's protection package for the plan to prevent the evil bacteria that access the edible part.
00:05:10:00 - 00:05:33:01
Petteri Salonen
So it's a mother nature's package and that of course we respect that. But in the end of the plant life, we want to bring that energy use. So we use a process called steam explosion, which is like, you know, when you cook, for example, carrot, it becomes sweeter than before the cooking. So the steam explosion has two main functions.
00:05:33:01 - 00:05:56:20
Petteri Salonen
One is cutting down the long sugar chains, the shorter ones that the bacteria can eat. And then another one, which may be even more important, is breaking the structure. These lean nine tubes that are protecting cellulose inside those. The steam explosion breaks the structure. It doesn't break the macro structure, the macro structure, but it breaks the micro structure.
00:05:56:20 - 00:06:02:05
Petteri Salonen
So it's very small opening so the bacteria can access cellulose on hemi cellulose.
00:06:02:07 - 00:06:19:05
Abigail Acton
So basically we're looking at stuff that's very, very woody and very, very fibrous and very, very dense. And we look at it and it feels dense in our hands and that very density is of course, off putting to the bacteria themselves as well. So you are making this I'm tempted to say, more porous, but that's not quite the right word, I suspect.
00:06:19:05 - 00:06:25:06
Abigail Acton
But anyway, you're making it more accessible and more available to the bacteria so that they can then feed on it. Is that correct?
00:06:25:08 - 00:06:26:19
Petteri Salonen
That is very correct. Right.
00:06:26:20 - 00:06:46:18
Abigail Acton
But I put it well, thank you. Yes, Yes, very good. Thank you. What I love about your project is you're making this material that has just basically been junked in ways that are not favorable to the environment. You're making it more valuable. You're putting a value on it because there is a used to it. But I also like the way that you're producing these these pellets that can then also be used as fuel.
00:06:46:18 - 00:06:54:13
Abigail Acton
So it's you're producing biogas, but you're also producing some sort of pellet system. Can you tell me a little bit more about the pellets that you're producing?
00:06:54:15 - 00:07:18:11
Petteri Salonen
Yes, we believe strongly in circular economy. You know, Finland, we have wood and we have frost. It's quite cold here. So we have we need to learn all the tricks to utilize everything. So dealing with cellulose, when we have done our process, we have got the gas, the rest of the material, the Digestate, which is mainly lean line, which doesn't turn to the bucket.
00:07:18:11 - 00:07:46:21
Petteri Salonen
So we want to utilize that and maximize the value for that. We can pellets that and make that kind of brown pellets which contains steel nutrients of plants because the nutrients don't go away in a biogas process. The digestate is very good for nutrient recycling. And these pellets, they if we we can make these pellets from pure wood when they can also be used to replace fossil coal in cold firing flat.
00:07:46:21 - 00:07:55:21
Petteri Salonen
So if you want to cut down 10% of your CO2 emissions in your still existing power coal fired power plant, you can use these brown pellets to do that.
00:07:55:23 - 00:08:06:04
Abigail Acton
Okay. So the pellets can be used as fuel, as you've just explained, but they can also be used. Yes. You mentioned that the nutrients are preserved in them. So I presume you're then saying that they can also be used as fertilizer?
00:08:06:06 - 00:08:27:09
Petteri Salonen
Yes, as a fertilizer. And that the digestate, the wood digestate before the pellet dicing, we don't have to actually necessarily make pellets, but pellets are much more easier to transport. But if we have a farm or farms around, we can bake the digestate. And it's very, very good because leaner tubes that still exist there, they are very good in capture in water.
00:08:27:12 - 00:08:52:05
Petteri Salonen
So what if we mix that in the soil, would maybe deplete it or otherwise not so fertile soil. It becomes much, much better for the plants to grow. There are nutrients, it's holding water better. And these tiny, tiny tubes, they provide places for the microbial which is needed for the plans to live there and as bacteria don't like to live with other bacteria.
00:08:52:05 - 00:08:54:18
Petteri Salonen
So they can go hiding in their small tubes.
00:08:54:18 - 00:09:15:07
Abigail Acton
So so basically it increases the biodiversity of the bacteria at the roots of the plants. And we've recently had an episode of CORDIScovery where we've been talking about soil health and crops, food security, etc.. So to sum up that it sounds a little bit like when you put things like artificial coral reefs or basically when you put things in water communities of fish grow up around those things that you've put in water.
00:09:15:07 - 00:09:31:14
Abigail Acton
So like the feet of a jetty or a dock, it always has a lot of biodiversity around the jetties legs, the support structures. So it sounds a little bit like that, but in soil. So you're putting these microscopic tubes from the plant matter into the soil and it provides an environment for the for the soil bacteria to pollinate.
00:09:31:16 - 00:09:32:01
Abigail Acton
Yes.
00:09:32:05 - 00:09:58:17
Petteri Salonen
And once we have made this a commercial product that we can use the digestate, there's a lot of carbon that that is in because the bacteria have eaten everything that is edible there. It doesn't decay in the ground. So we can turn the fields in the carbon sinks. And then that's a big thing because if we think about how much carbon we need to remove from the atmosphere, the only human activity that can handle so much carbon is agriculture.
00:09:58:17 - 00:10:02:08
Petteri Salonen
It's available all around the world. So actually a huge possibility here.
00:10:02:13 - 00:10:19:03
Abigail Acton
So just everywhere you look, there are avenues that are enriching rather than just burning the stuff as it stands or just putting it in landfill, I suppose. Okay, that's that's brilliant. Why did you get interested in this? What was it that first inspired you to think? Hang on a second. There's a lot of plant material out there that's not being used.
00:10:19:05 - 00:10:41:08
Petteri Salonen
Yes, actually, the story goes that I was with my kids in a farm and there was a wheat field and it was in Finland. Early August was almost a harvest time. So they the plants were as high as they got. My kids were small, so I couldn't see the kids. I just saw the stocks moving. And then I started to look at the one single wheat.
00:10:41:08 - 00:11:00:06
Yeray Asensio
So we ate the ten centimeters from the top and the half a meter. We do nothing. Maybe we blow back pepper to ground. So that's energy. I know that we can burn that. We can do everything with that. So what would be the best way to utilize that? So why not sell? I got bored when I was looking after my kids and came to the idea.
00:11:00:08 - 00:11:09:04
Abigail Acton
That you are. You see, being around children is encouraging to creativity. Yes, encouraging to a little bit of exhaustion, too. But it's encouraging the creativity. Yes.
00:11:09:05 - 00:11:09:18
Petteri Salonen
Yes. This.
00:11:09:18 - 00:11:12:18
Abigail Acton
Does anyone have any questions for Petteri? Yes. Yeray.
00:11:12:20 - 00:11:41:07
Yeray Asensio
And I would like to ask, is that curiosity okay? Yes, but under an ideal scenario. Okay, how you could use like for different uses value of fuels that you are producing from the civil waste from a biomass sample. And because I was curious about if you use that biogas in your process, you could have like a self-sufficient from the energetically point of view, like process or not super.
00:11:41:07 - 00:11:51:07
Abigail Acton
Thank you very much. The question Petteri. Can you tell us, for example, would you use the biogas that you're creating in order to actually continue to make your plants work or do you do you pipe it somewhere for heating? How does that.
00:11:51:07 - 00:12:14:06
Petteri Salonen
Work? Actually, like I say, the end itself is what they sense. This is very important for us and actually we are using the digester because it's quite high grade carbon. We can use that to generate the steam. So we are not touching the bio gas, the biomethane. So we are provided by anything for our number one target. Now is the industry decarbonization.
00:12:14:06 - 00:12:55:12
Petteri Salonen
You know that our industry wants to get rid of fossil energy. Electricity is it is if you have wind your best solar, you get an hydropower. But there are a lot of industries that use this natural gas and to be have a quick and cost areas and change is the only way is to replace that by biomethane. And there comes the beauty of this being lost and lost because it's available in large quantities and the well, if I may say so, the theory of the biofuel farm, because it's a large scale facility providing biomethane, we have made a design that focus the Repower use target over land from 4 million cubic meters of biomethane.
00:12:55:13 - 00:13:22:14
Petteri Salonen
And then we are talking about industrial scale. So we can build these biofuel fabs with this concept and provide biomethane direct to industry use. We get the raw material, the feedstock, the straw, the wood from the area around. So there's a supply security, there's a local jobs and there's a prosperity of the area in the process, we decarbonize the industry and of course biomethane is not quite as cheap as the natural gas.
00:13:22:14 - 00:13:24:22
Petteri Salonen
So it's a win win win scenario.
00:13:24:24 - 00:13:32:14
Abigail Acton
absolutely. And the Digestate just to clarify, that's the matter that's left after the process. What exactly does digestate mean Petteri?
00:13:32:16 - 00:13:40:17
Petteri Salonen
That's a yes. Like you said, you're getting it right. So it's a part of that biomass that doesn't turn into bio biomethane.
00:13:40:18 - 00:13:41:00
Abigail Acton
It's the.
00:13:41:00 - 00:13:53:22
Petteri Salonen
Residue. It's a residue, but it's not worthless. No, no. It's a very valuable. We can also replace the, the chemical fertilizers with these digestate.
00:13:53:24 - 00:13:55:07
Abigail Acton
Because it's so rich in nutrients.
00:13:55:12 - 00:14:01:20
Petteri Salonen
Yes. And it's all organic. So you get the organic for free. If you want to have a non organic, then you'll have to pay extra.
00:14:01:22 - 00:14:22:12
Abigail Acton
You have to actually add in the chemicals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that sounds fantastic. Yeray I'm going to turn to you. The SCALIBUR project focused on the development of different technological solutions to use bio wastes, mainly urban sewage sludge as a stock material to produce biogas and hydrogen. Yeray, What is wrong with the way we're currently exploiting sewage sludge to create hydrogen and other biofuels?
00:14:22:17 - 00:14:25:10
Abigail Acton
And how does your system differ?
00:14:25:12 - 00:14:49:20
Yeray Asensio
Okay. The main problem is that actually so it's is lots is treated in an anaerobic digester that are not economically affordable for especially for small towns and medium sized populated cities. Okay. So this is a huge problem. And that so which is lots is mainly composed by organic matter that is the potential feedstock for the production of biofuels.
00:14:49:20 - 00:15:21:07
Yeray Asensio
So that's a good thing. But it's also composed by pathogens, viruses and other microorganisms that should be removed. Well, we treat that. So it's a lot. So the lack of this kind of technologies, anaerobic digestion and the concept problematic issue, not only in Spain, where up to the 30% of facilities, lettuce produce in small cities, but also all around Europe, where we have huge extensions of rural areas that needs this kind of solution.
00:15:21:09 - 00:15:46:10
Yeray Asensio
So there's some of the problem is that if within three that's it, which is flat, we produce a low, very high loads of viruses that should be many. Okay. In that 2 minutes that so which is lots, we need a lot of transportation. So if we need a lot of transportation, we are also meeting a lot of CO2 to the atmosphere that it's not good for anyone.
00:15:46:12 - 00:15:53:15
Yeray Asensio
So according to this, it's mandatory to work on the development of low cost technologies based on conventional anaerobic digester.
00:15:53:18 - 00:15:59:16
Abigail Acton
Can I just ask you a question Yeay? I can you explain what you mean by an anaerobic digester, please? What is an anaerobic digester?
00:15:59:16 - 00:16:24:10
Yeray Asensio
Yes. Is that we create that European so which is flat. Okay. So we put it in like in a reactor without oxygen. And there are a lot of interaction with different microorganisms that they are consuming oxidizing organic matter that is in that. So which is lots. Okay, So we can produce biofuels for methane, for example. Okay.
00:16:24:12 - 00:16:44:00
Abigail Acton
So basically we take the sewage sludge and we can convert it into biomethane. Okay, great. And as you say, the problem is infrastructure and cost and having to transport the sewage sludge long distances before it can work. Okay. Yes. So can you tell me a little bit about how your system can change that problem or addresses the problem?
00:16:44:02 - 00:17:09:08
Yeray Asensio
Of course, because we have to we have to refer to the for instance, we are studying that is that we don't have to irrigate conventionally out of the destined for highly populated cities, for example. But it's important to redesign this technology in order to enhance the efficiency of the process, to enhance the efficiency of the process. We are looking to enhance the methane production in the that studies for during the day.
00:17:09:11 - 00:17:25:15
Yeray Asensio
Yes. Okay. In order to recover more energy or for biofuel. And the other thing is that for small cities that they can afford this anaerobic digester, we are studying how to perform that anaerobic digestion with low cost. The strategy's.
00:17:25:21 - 00:17:48:03
Abigail Acton
Right. Can you tell me a little bit more about one of these low cost strategies? Because, you know, you were telling me about the problem inherent in the notion of having to transport such large amounts of sewage sludge around the country for treatment, etc.. So what are some of the solutions you're coming up with to be able to treat the sewage sludge locally with anaerobic digesters that are of a different design?
00:17:48:05 - 00:18:18:17
Yeray Asensio
Okay. Air how we have to shorten this not just by using like normal recycled plastic back. Okay. But they start in the hydraulic system in order to promote the mixing and the anaerobic reaction that are that that drives this anaerobic. So we see the using recycled plastic box. We can enhance the production of methane that we can also use in the wastewater treatment plants.
00:18:18:17 - 00:18:28:12
Yeray Asensio
Yes. In order to not use nonrenewable energies and just to use our own energy, our own biofuel that we're producing locally.
00:18:28:14 - 00:18:48:09
Abigail Acton
Okay. So basically you're generating the biofuel, which is then reused in the treatment plant. So it's it is truly circular. Yes. I'm hearing the word recycled plastic bags, presumably you're using the plastic bags. Indeed. When we talked about this a little bit earlier, you were mentioning to me that you have very robust, strong containers. Could you just describe the containers a little to me?
00:18:48:15 - 00:19:20:22
Yeray Asensio
Of course, yes. They're composed of recycled plastic is not plastics. It's like a biopolymer. Okay. So it is all some are like sustainable. Okay. It's not like real plastic from non renewable energies. So we are like trying to design these kind of systems. We have designs in our system, but taking into account economic principle. So yes, do not use like real plastic, but this biopolymers that are great and they have been manufactured with recycled feedstocks.
00:19:20:22 - 00:19:21:15
Yeray Asensio
Okay.
00:19:21:17 - 00:19:37:00
Abigail Acton
Okay. So wonderful. So you're taking waste plastic, you're turning it into these robust, strong container virus. Have a long life because that's what you told us. So they last for a long time. They're very strong. So it's all plastic bags? Yes.
00:19:37:02 - 00:19:55:20
Yeray Asensio
It's very it's very easy for them to to find all these that are very, very strong because what we what we can to use this kind of plastic back. Plastic biopolymer Yeah. We are not sure that they will last for a long time.
00:19:55:20 - 00:19:56:01
Abigail Acton
Right?
00:19:56:01 - 00:19:59:17
Yeray Asensio
Exactly. Because so with this lot should not be disposal.
00:19:59:19 - 00:20:20:22
Abigail Acton
Yeah, you don't want any leaks. And also it's a green solution, right? It's wonderful. So you're recycling the plastic to create the containers and the containers are producing biomethane which is then being fed back into the sewage treatment plant for the processing. I think that's fantastic. Yes. Lovely, elegant solution. Thank you Yeray. It's incredibly important domain, clearly.
00:20:20:22 - 00:20:28:19
Abigail Acton
And I started it with the IPCC, a little extract from their report. But can I ask you why you personally decided to get involved in this domain from.
00:20:28:19 - 00:21:06:07
Yeray Asensio
The professional point of view? Sorry, I think that's right. Yes. To develop new technologies for the production of that's biofuels. But personally, I'm from a very small town in the middle of Spain where innovative technologies have not been present. So it's also an opportunity just to I think the solution for that people are people like me from rural areas, just to show them that Europe and the researchers are trying to give them innovative tools to solve environmental problems and that we face also day by day, but also to make them feel that we count on them too.
00:21:06:09 - 00:21:11:24
Yeray Asensio
So for me, it's very special just to send this kind of solution for people like me from rural areas.
00:21:12:00 - 00:21:28:05
Abigail Acton
Yeah, that's that's, that's fascinating. And so, I mean, in rural areas, not just in Spain, but across Europe, generally in towns that are small, which can't afford these large sort of anaerobic digestion for the sewage production. What actually happens to the sewage now is what's the status quo?
00:21:28:08 - 00:21:45:22
Yeray Asensio
They have to monitor that. So it's a slight success, ironically. Okay, So we have the kind of problem first of all, it costs a lot of money. But this from on the other hand, we need a lot of transportation, as I said before. Okay. So we are in all of the CO2 that is not good for. That's the sphere at all.
00:21:45:24 - 00:21:47:10
Cristina González
And we need to avoid that.
00:21:47:16 - 00:22:13:11
Abigail Acton
Yeah. So basically they truck it out to sewage plants that can handle it. Okay. Yes, super. Thank you very much. That was very interesting. Can I ask if anyone has any questions for Yeray Right. Well, I have an extra question for you that was making me really curious if there's one real takeaway from your work that you would like waste water treatment companies to appreciate or to understand, what would that be or what would be the the key thing that you feel is important from your work.
00:22:13:13 - 00:22:37:20
Yeray Asensio
For example, for private companies, I think they need to look for sustainable and we need to to try to not only to treat the wastewater on the soil, which is lots, but we also have to protect the environment. But I feel extremely happy that I'm working in that private company, that they really care about this kind of solutions that we have explained before.
00:22:37:20 - 00:23:02:13
Yeray Asensio
Okay, So because is the company that they are trying to promote also this kind of technologies that we have in this global project and we have technical reference and not only in Spain in the set for A and in the next times we will it's thousands start up this kind of solution, mostly in France, in Portugal. So I feel really lucky that that my company thinks about the environment.
00:23:02:16 - 00:23:17:21
Abigail Acton
Yeah, because what I'm hearing from you as somebody who's working within that kind of company is that, you know, it makes you feel very supportive of your organization and you feel connected to it because you can see that it's doing stuff that's important. Excellent. Thank you very much. You're right. That super. Thank you very much. Christina, I'm going to turn to you now.
00:23:17:23 - 00:23:32:16
Abigail Acton
Christina, you worked on The Prodigio project which wanted to focus on microalgae, biogas, And you can tell us more about what that actually means in a minute. But you were also interested in stress testing systems like Get Eyes. So can you tell us more about what you're testing and why?
00:23:32:17 - 00:23:59:08
Cristina González
Yes, we are testing how some perturbations may affect the digestion. Bioprocess these by a process called this plug. We are using microalgae as a feedstock and then in general, with digestion, you have some anaerobic microorganisms that are going to degrade these microalgae, and during the degradation they're going to produce biomass, which is the biofuel that we are interested on.
00:23:59:10 - 00:24:24:03
Cristina González
This biomass can be later upgraded and compressed to use it as a biofuel. Why do we do these perturbations? Why would we study these perturbations? Because this preservation siting would happen in real life. But the problem is that whenever you want to realize that this perturbation has taken place, it's too late. The system has failed. I mean, they too long to be to be recovered.
00:24:24:05 - 00:24:32:07
Abigail Acton
So, Christina, if I may ask you, what type of perturbations are you looking at when you say perturbations, what kind of stressors are you looking at and considering.
00:24:32:09 - 00:24:47:08
Cristina González
We are most common ones, if either the system is not getting fed because some pump has been broken and then the microorganisms are not getting their food or the other way around, pump has.
00:24:47:10 - 00:24:48:23
Abigail Acton
Accelerated.
00:24:49:00 - 00:24:59:20
Cristina González
Yeah, some dramatic changes there that we can control and then the microorganisms are getting too much food, so either starvation or overloading of food.
00:24:59:22 - 00:25:11:12
Abigail Acton
But also I believe you're looking at sort of other kind of chemical transactions going on within the anaerobic digestion because of, I could say, perhaps contamination. Could you tell me a little bit about that sort of thing?
00:25:11:14 - 00:25:19:21
Cristina González
You mean these chemicals, for instance? The other chemicals we are we are checking is the intrusion of salinity, for instance, because.
00:25:19:21 - 00:25:21:24
Abigail Acton
There you go beyond. Tell us more about that.
00:25:21:24 - 00:25:53:12
Cristina González
You might be close to the coast with your microalgae system. You grow microalgae, so you get salt because of fish everywhere. So then it ends up in the anaerobic digestion and then your microorganisms are going to fight with the salinity. Right. So there you have a second. I know type of perturbations and also because we are always feeding microalgae, you can when you grow microalgae, you can use pesticides and antibiotics to get your robust, our robust microalgae growth.
00:25:53:14 - 00:26:10:10
Cristina González
And at the end these chemicals we grow with the biomass, with these microalgae into the digesters. So these are the kind of chemicals we are also looking at to see how the microbial anaerobic population, they're these ones that they are degrading this organic matter, how do they behave?
00:26:10:14 - 00:26:12:08
Abigail Acton
Right? And what sort of things are you finding?
00:26:12:14 - 00:26:40:10
Cristina González
What we are seeing is how do they react? What are the signals that they are telling us that something is going wrong? So we look at biological signals, some chemical signals or physical signals. We take all kind of parameters for you too. We like to make this comparison to like a jenga tower. You know, these game blocks. Yeah, anaerobic digestion is something similar.
00:26:40:14 - 00:26:58:22
Cristina González
If you feed, no problem. If you remove one block, there is no problem. But if you keep on removing, you are going to reach a moment in which your power is going to be unstable. So this is our tipping point and when you remove one is not going to be gravelly any more, is going to be like the power is going down.
00:26:59:03 - 00:27:06:13
Cristina González
So this is exactly what we see that our methane production is going down is digester high speed.
00:27:06:15 - 00:27:23:21
Abigail Acton
So of course, the beauty of your work then obviously, is that you can identify these triggers and then what you communicate these to to waste management treatment plants or how does it work practically once you've discovered these interesting kind of connections, How'd you get the information out there so they can change what happens in the treatment?
00:27:23:22 - 00:28:00:02
Cristina González
Yeah, indeed. Yeah. This would be the ideal situation in which we can transfer the knowledge we have because we are in the second year. So we still have a lot of things to learn. But every time we go to a conference to event with the stakeholders, they are really interested on, okay, let me know what are the signals that they are going to tell you that they the system, they, they anaerobic digestion is going to fail because now operators just operate the plants without whenever they want to realize easily late, you can get the signals ahead.
00:28:00:04 - 00:28:02:19
Cristina González
This will be tremendously useful.
00:28:02:21 - 00:28:19:05
Abigail Acton
Yeah. No, clearly I think I think that's great. Absolutely. And then, you know, you'd have continuity of production and it would be a little tweak before everything got really super. Okay. You mentioned microalgae. I mean, tell me a little bit more about how they used in in biogas production.
00:28:19:05 - 00:28:56:19
Cristina González
We use microalgae in these because we see it as some microorganisms that can help you treating wastewater because conventionally you use the conventional system, you use aerobic bacteria to degrade the contaminants that you have in wastewater. But there aerobic. So therefore they need oxygen. And this can be like 50% of the total cost of their treatment. So instead, what we do is make them play bacteria to be bacteria with microalgae, because microalgae happen, they are like tiny plants, they uptake CO2 and they release oxygen.
00:28:56:22 - 00:29:00:09
Cristina González
So this is the oxygen that bacteria is going to need afterwards.
00:29:00:11 - 00:29:08:02
Abigail Acton
I see. And that's what you mean by feed. In fact, it's almost yeah, it's like it's it is a kind of feeding, but you mean basically giving them the air they need to breathe.
00:29:08:05 - 00:29:23:10
Cristina González
In their growth system. Yeah. If you're giving them the oxygen to degrade the contaminants and then you get the whole biomass you harvest these biomass microbes and bacteria, and you take them to their native digester, you degrade them and you get your biogas, your biofuel.
00:29:23:11 - 00:29:26:11
Abigail Acton
So in fact, there's like a double phase of use from them.
00:29:26:13 - 00:29:31:06
Cristina González
Yeah, in a win win situation, because you save waste water and you get their energy.
00:29:31:06 - 00:29:49:11
Abigail Acton
So, yeah, well, I love this other side. Like I said, right at the very beginning, it's all incredibly neat. I mean, we've got Yeray’s bags that are being recycled to make really strong containers for local communities to to use for for treatment. And you using the microalgae to to perpetuate the process. I think it's absolutely brilliant. Thank you very much.
00:29:49:13 - 00:30:06:22
Abigail Acton
You mentioned this a little bit, actually, when you said that there is interest when you go to conferences and so on with companies asking you for more information. Can I ask you I know that the project is ongoing and you're you know, as you say, in year two, but looking ahead, do you believe that there will be uptake of this idea?
00:30:06:22 - 00:30:19:18
Abigail Acton
Because it does sound very neat, but at the same time, it's a disruptive technology and we all know how difficult it is to get established ways to change. You know, Do you think that there will be a lot of uptake in interest when you're done?
00:30:19:20 - 00:30:43:10
Cristina González
I think there is going to be interest because we are seeing already that. Is there any time we go somewhere, it's like, okay, when are you going to have this model ready to know when my biological system, because at the end it's biology. You don't see the immediate is what we say. So we're talking about bacteria. So they are really small and you kind of know what is what they are doing.
00:30:43:10 - 00:31:13:12
Cristina González
And in fact, you see their response. So if you can have these predicting model that can tell you, okay, if you are having this chemical, your system is going around. So this I mean, for operators of plants, big companies like the one of get I mean these can be tremendously useful and yeah they are I hope I really hope that at the end of the project we can have this model and we can translate to companies.
00:31:13:13 - 00:31:31:09
Abigail Acton
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm particularly seeing a use a case scenario where you might, for example, have in an Arabic digester treating sewage sludge somewhere coastal, as you said, and maybe, for example, there is an ingress of salinity coming from the environment and they might not know that that's even happening because it's all invisible and bam, suddenly nothing's working.
00:31:31:11 - 00:31:51:14
Abigail Acton
Well, listen, thank you so much for your time. I personally, I'm really glad we've had this conversation because biofuels, biomass, even anaerobic digestion, these are terms that we see more and more frequently. But yeah, it's just fantastic having three experts here to explain what they actually mean, why they matter, and where we hope we're going to be going in the future.
00:31:51:16 - 00:31:53:20
Abigail Acton
So thanks very much for your time.
00:31:53:22 - 00:31:54:15
Cristina González
Thank you.
00:31:54:16 - 00:31:55:07
Petteri Salonen
Thank you.
00:31:55:12 - 00:31:56:09
Yeray Asensio
Thank you.
00:31:56:11 - 00:31:59:14
Abigail Acton
It's been lovely having you. I've really appreciated it. Bye bye.
00:32:01:21 - 00:32:26:04
Abigail Acton
This goes to me if you've enjoyed this podcast and are interested in the latest scientific research coming out of the EU, have a listen to previous episodes. Follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Are you curious about what other EU funded projects are doing to boost our use of biofuels? The Cordis website will give you an insight into the results of projects funded by Horizon 2020 and Horizon Europe that are working in this area.
00:32:26:06 - 00:32:47:20
Abigail Acton
The website has articles and interviews that explore the results of research being conducted in a very broad range of domains and subjects from antibiotics to anti-matter. There's something there for you. Maybe you're involved in a project or would like to apply for funding. Take a look at what others are doing in your domain. So come and check out the research that's revealing what makes our world tick.
00:32:47:22 - 00:32:55:12
Abigail Acton
We're always happy to hear from you. Drop us a line. Editorial at cordis dot Europa dot EU. Until next time.
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:10:05 - 00:00:16:00
Abigail Acton
This is CORDIScovery.
00:00:16:01 - 00:00:45:07
Abigail Acton
Hello and welcome to this episode of CORDIScovery with me, Abigail Acton. The United Nations report, published in March 2023, is very clear when it says: “in this decade, accelerated action to adapt to climate change is essential to close the gap between existing adaptation and what is needed. Meanwhile, keeping warming to 1.5 degrees C above pre-industrial levels requires deep, rapid and sustained greenhouse gas emissions reductions in all sectors.
00:00:45:09 - 00:01:05:10
Abigail Acton
Emissions should be decreasing by now and will need to be cut by almost half by 2030 if warming is to be limited to 1.5 degrees C”. So today we're looking at biofuels and their role in helping us to meet those goals. A biofuel is a fuel that comes from biomass frequently produced as an organic waste from other processes.
00:01:05:10 - 00:01:25:21
Abigail Acton
Biomass themselves can be hard to dispose of heading for landfill or incineration, using the waste as an energy source is particularly elegant. You take the waste that is all too often part of the problem when it comes to disposal and you break it down to get gas, which is then used as fuel. Neat,
00:01:25:23 - 00:01:49:09
Abigail Acton
Here to talk through what can be used, how it's done, and what the result can be are three people involved in projects which have received EU support. Petteri Salonen is the CEO of Finrenes, a Finnish company that is working on turning wood and plant fiber waste into biomethane and fuel pellets. They have a new approach to breaking down fiber, often agricultural waste, which is attracting attention globally.
00:01:49:11 - 00:01:51:03
Petteri Salonen
Hello, Abigail. It's nice to be here.
00:01:51:06 - 00:02:11:02
Abigail Acton
Lovely to have you. Yeray Asensio is based at the Spanish water management company Aqualia's Department of Innovation and Technology. His expertise is in wastewater treatment bioenergy generation using bio electrochemical and electrochemical technologies to extract energy from sewage sludge. Welcome, Yeray.
00:02:11:07 - 00:02:12:19
Yeray Asensio
Hi, everyone.
00:02:12:21 - 00:02:32:23
Abigail Acton
Head of the biotechnology unit at the Institute of Advanced Studies in Madrid. Cristina Gonzalez is particularly interested in recovering carbon from waste for the production of biochemicals and biofuels within the idea of the circular economy. Cristina is also involved in stress testing systems to see what goes wrong when and how to fix it. Hi Cristina.
00:02:33:04 - 00:02:34:22
Cristina González
I thank you for having me.
00:02:34:24 - 00:02:52:19
Abigail Acton
You're very welcome. I'm going to turn to Petteri now. Battery Biofuel Fab is a project conducted by Finrenes. Can you tell me a little bit about what's wrong with the way that we currently use things like wheat stalks and other agricultural plant waste and treat chippings? What are we doing wrong at the moment?
00:02:52:21 - 00:03:22:03
Petteri Salonen
Well, what we are mainly doing wrong is that we are doing actually quite nothing with those. So in agriculture these draw the edible part of the plant explored back to the field to release the nutrients. And when these straw decays it releases methane to the atmosphere, which is bad for the climate. In a nutshell, we are not seeing what valuable resources we have around and we consider them as a waste.
00:03:22:09 - 00:03:36:20
Petteri Salonen
Instead, we should have a look at those and identify that the Good grief it's a valuable resource. It's available everywhere in large quantities, and it may be one of the keys in winning this fight against the climate change.
00:03:36:21 - 00:03:53:08
Abigail Acton
Right. Absolutely. And I mean, obviously, we've also I suppose all of us have seen large sort of fields of arable plants being burnt after they've been harvested as well. I mean, I know that that's something that's very controversial, but I myself have certainly seen large fields being burnt after sunflowers, for example, and so on.
00:03:53:10 - 00:04:17:20
Petteri Salonen
That is true, especially in India. They have four harvests a year and the time between the harvest and the next blow is only two weeks. So what do they do? They are not very rich. Those are farmers. So they put kerosene. The fields and burn it. And you can read from the newspapers that in New Delhi area, especially winter, the pollution in their air is awful.
00:04:17:21 - 00:04:24:20
Petteri Salonen
So that's really awful for me. Or that they are burning money. I care about the climate, but I also care about money.
00:04:24:22 - 00:04:47:11
Abigail Acton
Yeah, you're there far enough. And I mean, it's Yeah, absolutely. So that's lose lose. We often say win win, that's lose lose. Okay. So now, yes, having established that we are wasting these resources and sometimes in a way that is very destructive to the environment and what is new about this, the approach the Biofuel Fab first developed, Can you tell me a little bit about how you process this to make it more accessible?
00:04:47:13 - 00:05:09:24
Petteri Salonen
Yes, we break the structure, rebuilding the cellulose. If we go to the science. The selling of cellulose consists of three main compounds. One is cellulose, which can be turned to energy and cellulose, which can be turned to energy and linen, which is Mother Nature's protection package for the plan to prevent the evil bacteria that access the edible part.
00:05:10:00 - 00:05:33:01
Petteri Salonen
So it's a mother nature's package and that of course we respect that. But in the end of the plant life, we want to bring that energy use. So we use a process called steam explosion, which is like, you know, when you cook, for example, carrot, it becomes sweeter than before the cooking. So the steam explosion has two main functions.
00:05:33:01 - 00:05:56:20
Petteri Salonen
One is cutting down the long sugar chains, the shorter ones that the bacteria can eat. And then another one, which may be even more important, is breaking the structure. These lean nine tubes that are protecting cellulose inside those. The steam explosion breaks the structure. It doesn't break the macro structure, the macro structure, but it breaks the micro structure.
00:05:56:20 - 00:06:02:05
Petteri Salonen
So it's very small opening so the bacteria can access cellulose on hemi cellulose.
00:06:02:07 - 00:06:19:05
Abigail Acton
So basically we're looking at stuff that's very, very woody and very, very fibrous and very, very dense. And we look at it and it feels dense in our hands and that very density is of course, off putting to the bacteria themselves as well. So you are making this I'm tempted to say, more porous, but that's not quite the right word, I suspect.
00:06:19:05 - 00:06:25:06
Abigail Acton
But anyway, you're making it more accessible and more available to the bacteria so that they can then feed on it. Is that correct?
00:06:25:08 - 00:06:26:19
Petteri Salonen
That is very correct. Right.
00:06:26:20 - 00:06:46:18
Abigail Acton
But I put it well, thank you. Yes, Yes, very good. Thank you. What I love about your project is you're making this material that has just basically been junked in ways that are not favorable to the environment. You're making it more valuable. You're putting a value on it because there is a used to it. But I also like the way that you're producing these these pellets that can then also be used as fuel.
00:06:46:18 - 00:06:54:13
Abigail Acton
So it's you're producing biogas, but you're also producing some sort of pellet system. Can you tell me a little bit more about the pellets that you're producing?
00:06:54:15 - 00:07:18:11
Petteri Salonen
Yes, we believe strongly in circular economy. You know, Finland, we have wood and we have frost. It's quite cold here. So we have we need to learn all the tricks to utilize everything. So dealing with cellulose, when we have done our process, we have got the gas, the rest of the material, the Digestate, which is mainly lean line, which doesn't turn to the bucket.
00:07:18:11 - 00:07:46:21
Petteri Salonen
So we want to utilize that and maximize the value for that. We can pellets that and make that kind of brown pellets which contains steel nutrients of plants because the nutrients don't go away in a biogas process. The digestate is very good for nutrient recycling. And these pellets, they if we we can make these pellets from pure wood when they can also be used to replace fossil coal in cold firing flat.
00:07:46:21 - 00:07:55:21
Petteri Salonen
So if you want to cut down 10% of your CO2 emissions in your still existing power coal fired power plant, you can use these brown pellets to do that.
00:07:55:23 - 00:08:06:04
Abigail Acton
Okay. So the pellets can be used as fuel, as you've just explained, but they can also be used. Yes. You mentioned that the nutrients are preserved in them. So I presume you're then saying that they can also be used as fertilizer?
00:08:06:06 - 00:08:27:09
Petteri Salonen
Yes, as a fertilizer. And that the digestate, the wood digestate before the pellet dicing, we don't have to actually necessarily make pellets, but pellets are much more easier to transport. But if we have a farm or farms around, we can bake the digestate. And it's very, very good because leaner tubes that still exist there, they are very good in capture in water.
00:08:27:12 - 00:08:52:05
Petteri Salonen
So what if we mix that in the soil, would maybe deplete it or otherwise not so fertile soil. It becomes much, much better for the plants to grow. There are nutrients, it's holding water better. And these tiny, tiny tubes, they provide places for the microbial which is needed for the plans to live there and as bacteria don't like to live with other bacteria.
00:08:52:05 - 00:08:54:18
Petteri Salonen
So they can go hiding in their small tubes.
00:08:54:18 - 00:09:15:07
Abigail Acton
So so basically it increases the biodiversity of the bacteria at the roots of the plants. And we've recently had an episode of CORDIScovery where we've been talking about soil health and crops, food security, etc.. So to sum up that it sounds a little bit like when you put things like artificial coral reefs or basically when you put things in water communities of fish grow up around those things that you've put in water.
00:09:15:07 - 00:09:31:14
Abigail Acton
So like the feet of a jetty or a dock, it always has a lot of biodiversity around the jetties legs, the support structures. So it sounds a little bit like that, but in soil. So you're putting these microscopic tubes from the plant matter into the soil and it provides an environment for the for the soil bacteria to pollinate.
00:09:31:16 - 00:09:32:01
Abigail Acton
Yes.
00:09:32:05 - 00:09:58:17
Petteri Salonen
And once we have made this a commercial product that we can use the digestate, there's a lot of carbon that that is in because the bacteria have eaten everything that is edible there. It doesn't decay in the ground. So we can turn the fields in the carbon sinks. And then that's a big thing because if we think about how much carbon we need to remove from the atmosphere, the only human activity that can handle so much carbon is agriculture.
00:09:58:17 - 00:10:02:08
Petteri Salonen
It's available all around the world. So actually a huge possibility here.
00:10:02:13 - 00:10:19:03
Abigail Acton
So just everywhere you look, there are avenues that are enriching rather than just burning the stuff as it stands or just putting it in landfill, I suppose. Okay, that's that's brilliant. Why did you get interested in this? What was it that first inspired you to think? Hang on a second. There's a lot of plant material out there that's not being used.
00:10:19:05 - 00:10:41:08
Petteri Salonen
Yes, actually, the story goes that I was with my kids in a farm and there was a wheat field and it was in Finland. Early August was almost a harvest time. So they the plants were as high as they got. My kids were small, so I couldn't see the kids. I just saw the stocks moving. And then I started to look at the one single wheat.
00:10:41:08 - 00:11:00:06
Yeray Asensio
So we ate the ten centimeters from the top and the half a meter. We do nothing. Maybe we blow back pepper to ground. So that's energy. I know that we can burn that. We can do everything with that. So what would be the best way to utilize that? So why not sell? I got bored when I was looking after my kids and came to the idea.
00:11:00:08 - 00:11:09:04
Abigail Acton
That you are. You see, being around children is encouraging to creativity. Yes, encouraging to a little bit of exhaustion, too. But it's encouraging the creativity. Yes.
00:11:09:05 - 00:11:09:18
Petteri Salonen
Yes. This.
00:11:09:18 - 00:11:12:18
Abigail Acton
Does anyone have any questions for Petteri? Yes. Yeray.
00:11:12:20 - 00:11:41:07
Yeray Asensio
And I would like to ask, is that curiosity okay? Yes, but under an ideal scenario. Okay, how you could use like for different uses value of fuels that you are producing from the civil waste from a biomass sample. And because I was curious about if you use that biogas in your process, you could have like a self-sufficient from the energetically point of view, like process or not super.
00:11:41:07 - 00:11:51:07
Abigail Acton
Thank you very much. The question Petteri. Can you tell us, for example, would you use the biogas that you're creating in order to actually continue to make your plants work or do you do you pipe it somewhere for heating? How does that.
00:11:51:07 - 00:12:14:06
Petteri Salonen
Work? Actually, like I say, the end itself is what they sense. This is very important for us and actually we are using the digester because it's quite high grade carbon. We can use that to generate the steam. So we are not touching the bio gas, the biomethane. So we are provided by anything for our number one target. Now is the industry decarbonization.
00:12:14:06 - 00:12:55:12
Petteri Salonen
You know that our industry wants to get rid of fossil energy. Electricity is it is if you have wind your best solar, you get an hydropower. But there are a lot of industries that use this natural gas and to be have a quick and cost areas and change is the only way is to replace that by biomethane. And there comes the beauty of this being lost and lost because it's available in large quantities and the well, if I may say so, the theory of the biofuel farm, because it's a large scale facility providing biomethane, we have made a design that focus the Repower use target over land from 4 million cubic meters of biomethane.
00:12:55:13 - 00:13:22:14
Petteri Salonen
And then we are talking about industrial scale. So we can build these biofuel fabs with this concept and provide biomethane direct to industry use. We get the raw material, the feedstock, the straw, the wood from the area around. So there's a supply security, there's a local jobs and there's a prosperity of the area in the process, we decarbonize the industry and of course biomethane is not quite as cheap as the natural gas.
00:13:22:14 - 00:13:24:22
Petteri Salonen
So it's a win win win scenario.
00:13:24:24 - 00:13:32:14
Abigail Acton
absolutely. And the Digestate just to clarify, that's the matter that's left after the process. What exactly does digestate mean Petteri?
00:13:32:16 - 00:13:40:17
Petteri Salonen
That's a yes. Like you said, you're getting it right. So it's a part of that biomass that doesn't turn into bio biomethane.
00:13:40:18 - 00:13:41:00
Abigail Acton
It's the.
00:13:41:00 - 00:13:53:22
Petteri Salonen
Residue. It's a residue, but it's not worthless. No, no. It's a very valuable. We can also replace the, the chemical fertilizers with these digestate.
00:13:53:24 - 00:13:55:07
Abigail Acton
Because it's so rich in nutrients.
00:13:55:12 - 00:14:01:20
Petteri Salonen
Yes. And it's all organic. So you get the organic for free. If you want to have a non organic, then you'll have to pay extra.
00:14:01:22 - 00:14:22:12
Abigail Acton
You have to actually add in the chemicals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that sounds fantastic. Yeray I'm going to turn to you. The SCALIBUR project focused on the development of different technological solutions to use bio wastes, mainly urban sewage sludge as a stock material to produce biogas and hydrogen. Yeray, What is wrong with the way we're currently exploiting sewage sludge to create hydrogen and other biofuels?
00:14:22:17 - 00:14:25:10
Abigail Acton
And how does your system differ?
00:14:25:12 - 00:14:49:20
Yeray Asensio
Okay. The main problem is that actually so it's is lots is treated in an anaerobic digester that are not economically affordable for especially for small towns and medium sized populated cities. Okay. So this is a huge problem. And that so which is lots is mainly composed by organic matter that is the potential feedstock for the production of biofuels.
00:14:49:20 - 00:15:21:07
Yeray Asensio
So that's a good thing. But it's also composed by pathogens, viruses and other microorganisms that should be removed. Well, we treat that. So it's a lot. So the lack of this kind of technologies, anaerobic digestion and the concept problematic issue, not only in Spain, where up to the 30% of facilities, lettuce produce in small cities, but also all around Europe, where we have huge extensions of rural areas that needs this kind of solution.
00:15:21:09 - 00:15:46:10
Yeray Asensio
So there's some of the problem is that if within three that's it, which is flat, we produce a low, very high loads of viruses that should be many. Okay. In that 2 minutes that so which is lots, we need a lot of transportation. So if we need a lot of transportation, we are also meeting a lot of CO2 to the atmosphere that it's not good for anyone.
00:15:46:12 - 00:15:53:15
Yeray Asensio
So according to this, it's mandatory to work on the development of low cost technologies based on conventional anaerobic digester.
00:15:53:18 - 00:15:59:16
Abigail Acton
Can I just ask you a question Yeay? I can you explain what you mean by an anaerobic digester, please? What is an anaerobic digester?
00:15:59:16 - 00:16:24:10
Yeray Asensio
Yes. Is that we create that European so which is flat. Okay. So we put it in like in a reactor without oxygen. And there are a lot of interaction with different microorganisms that they are consuming oxidizing organic matter that is in that. So which is lots. Okay, So we can produce biofuels for methane, for example. Okay.
00:16:24:12 - 00:16:44:00
Abigail Acton
So basically we take the sewage sludge and we can convert it into biomethane. Okay, great. And as you say, the problem is infrastructure and cost and having to transport the sewage sludge long distances before it can work. Okay. Yes. So can you tell me a little bit about how your system can change that problem or addresses the problem?
00:16:44:02 - 00:17:09:08
Yeray Asensio
Of course, because we have to we have to refer to the for instance, we are studying that is that we don't have to irrigate conventionally out of the destined for highly populated cities, for example. But it's important to redesign this technology in order to enhance the efficiency of the process, to enhance the efficiency of the process. We are looking to enhance the methane production in the that studies for during the day.
00:17:09:11 - 00:17:25:15
Yeray Asensio
Yes. Okay. In order to recover more energy or for biofuel. And the other thing is that for small cities that they can afford this anaerobic digester, we are studying how to perform that anaerobic digestion with low cost. The strategy's.
00:17:25:21 - 00:17:48:03
Abigail Acton
Right. Can you tell me a little bit more about one of these low cost strategies? Because, you know, you were telling me about the problem inherent in the notion of having to transport such large amounts of sewage sludge around the country for treatment, etc.. So what are some of the solutions you're coming up with to be able to treat the sewage sludge locally with anaerobic digesters that are of a different design?
00:17:48:05 - 00:18:18:17
Yeray Asensio
Okay. Air how we have to shorten this not just by using like normal recycled plastic back. Okay. But they start in the hydraulic system in order to promote the mixing and the anaerobic reaction that are that that drives this anaerobic. So we see the using recycled plastic box. We can enhance the production of methane that we can also use in the wastewater treatment plants.
00:18:18:17 - 00:18:28:12
Yeray Asensio
Yes. In order to not use nonrenewable energies and just to use our own energy, our own biofuel that we're producing locally.
00:18:28:14 - 00:18:48:09
Abigail Acton
Okay. So basically you're generating the biofuel, which is then reused in the treatment plant. So it's it is truly circular. Yes. I'm hearing the word recycled plastic bags, presumably you're using the plastic bags. Indeed. When we talked about this a little bit earlier, you were mentioning to me that you have very robust, strong containers. Could you just describe the containers a little to me?
00:18:48:15 - 00:19:20:22
Yeray Asensio
Of course, yes. They're composed of recycled plastic is not plastics. It's like a biopolymer. Okay. So it is all some are like sustainable. Okay. It's not like real plastic from non renewable energies. So we are like trying to design these kind of systems. We have designs in our system, but taking into account economic principle. So yes, do not use like real plastic, but this biopolymers that are great and they have been manufactured with recycled feedstocks.
00:19:20:22 - 00:19:21:15
Yeray Asensio
Okay.
00:19:21:17 - 00:19:37:00
Abigail Acton
Okay. So wonderful. So you're taking waste plastic, you're turning it into these robust, strong container virus. Have a long life because that's what you told us. So they last for a long time. They're very strong. So it's all plastic bags? Yes.
00:19:37:02 - 00:19:55:20
Yeray Asensio
It's very it's very easy for them to to find all these that are very, very strong because what we what we can to use this kind of plastic back. Plastic biopolymer Yeah. We are not sure that they will last for a long time.
00:19:55:20 - 00:19:56:01
Abigail Acton
Right?
00:19:56:01 - 00:19:59:17
Yeray Asensio
Exactly. Because so with this lot should not be disposal.
00:19:59:19 - 00:20:20:22
Abigail Acton
Yeah, you don't want any leaks. And also it's a green solution, right? It's wonderful. So you're recycling the plastic to create the containers and the containers are producing biomethane which is then being fed back into the sewage treatment plant for the processing. I think that's fantastic. Yes. Lovely, elegant solution. Thank you Yeray. It's incredibly important domain, clearly.
00:20:20:22 - 00:20:28:19
Abigail Acton
And I started it with the IPCC, a little extract from their report. But can I ask you why you personally decided to get involved in this domain from.
00:20:28:19 - 00:21:06:07
Yeray Asensio
The professional point of view? Sorry, I think that's right. Yes. To develop new technologies for the production of that's biofuels. But personally, I'm from a very small town in the middle of Spain where innovative technologies have not been present. So it's also an opportunity just to I think the solution for that people are people like me from rural areas, just to show them that Europe and the researchers are trying to give them innovative tools to solve environmental problems and that we face also day by day, but also to make them feel that we count on them too.
00:21:06:09 - 00:21:11:24
Yeray Asensio
So for me, it's very special just to send this kind of solution for people like me from rural areas.
00:21:12:00 - 00:21:28:05
Abigail Acton
Yeah, that's that's, that's fascinating. And so, I mean, in rural areas, not just in Spain, but across Europe, generally in towns that are small, which can't afford these large sort of anaerobic digestion for the sewage production. What actually happens to the sewage now is what's the status quo?
00:21:28:08 - 00:21:45:22
Yeray Asensio
They have to monitor that. So it's a slight success, ironically. Okay, So we have the kind of problem first of all, it costs a lot of money. But this from on the other hand, we need a lot of transportation, as I said before. Okay. So we are in all of the CO2 that is not good for. That's the sphere at all.
00:21:45:24 - 00:21:47:10
Cristina González
And we need to avoid that.
00:21:47:16 - 00:22:13:11
Abigail Acton
Yeah. So basically they truck it out to sewage plants that can handle it. Okay. Yes, super. Thank you very much. That was very interesting. Can I ask if anyone has any questions for Yeray Right. Well, I have an extra question for you that was making me really curious if there's one real takeaway from your work that you would like waste water treatment companies to appreciate or to understand, what would that be or what would be the the key thing that you feel is important from your work.
00:22:13:13 - 00:22:37:20
Yeray Asensio
For example, for private companies, I think they need to look for sustainable and we need to to try to not only to treat the wastewater on the soil, which is lots, but we also have to protect the environment. But I feel extremely happy that I'm working in that private company, that they really care about this kind of solutions that we have explained before.
00:22:37:20 - 00:23:02:13
Yeray Asensio
Okay, So because is the company that they are trying to promote also this kind of technologies that we have in this global project and we have technical reference and not only in Spain in the set for A and in the next times we will it's thousands start up this kind of solution, mostly in France, in Portugal. So I feel really lucky that that my company thinks about the environment.
00:23:02:16 - 00:23:17:21
Abigail Acton
Yeah, because what I'm hearing from you as somebody who's working within that kind of company is that, you know, it makes you feel very supportive of your organization and you feel connected to it because you can see that it's doing stuff that's important. Excellent. Thank you very much. You're right. That super. Thank you very much. Christina, I'm going to turn to you now.
00:23:17:23 - 00:23:32:16
Abigail Acton
Christina, you worked on The Prodigio project which wanted to focus on microalgae, biogas, And you can tell us more about what that actually means in a minute. But you were also interested in stress testing systems like Get Eyes. So can you tell us more about what you're testing and why?
00:23:32:17 - 00:23:59:08
Cristina González
Yes, we are testing how some perturbations may affect the digestion. Bioprocess these by a process called this plug. We are using microalgae as a feedstock and then in general, with digestion, you have some anaerobic microorganisms that are going to degrade these microalgae, and during the degradation they're going to produce biomass, which is the biofuel that we are interested on.
00:23:59:10 - 00:24:24:03
Cristina González
This biomass can be later upgraded and compressed to use it as a biofuel. Why do we do these perturbations? Why would we study these perturbations? Because this preservation siting would happen in real life. But the problem is that whenever you want to realize that this perturbation has taken place, it's too late. The system has failed. I mean, they too long to be to be recovered.
00:24:24:05 - 00:24:32:07
Abigail Acton
So, Christina, if I may ask you, what type of perturbations are you looking at when you say perturbations, what kind of stressors are you looking at and considering.
00:24:32:09 - 00:24:47:08
Cristina González
We are most common ones, if either the system is not getting fed because some pump has been broken and then the microorganisms are not getting their food or the other way around, pump has.
00:24:47:10 - 00:24:48:23
Abigail Acton
Accelerated.
00:24:49:00 - 00:24:59:20
Cristina González
Yeah, some dramatic changes there that we can control and then the microorganisms are getting too much food, so either starvation or overloading of food.
00:24:59:22 - 00:25:11:12
Abigail Acton
But also I believe you're looking at sort of other kind of chemical transactions going on within the anaerobic digestion because of, I could say, perhaps contamination. Could you tell me a little bit about that sort of thing?
00:25:11:14 - 00:25:19:21
Cristina González
You mean these chemicals, for instance? The other chemicals we are we are checking is the intrusion of salinity, for instance, because.
00:25:19:21 - 00:25:21:24
Abigail Acton
There you go beyond. Tell us more about that.
00:25:21:24 - 00:25:53:12
Cristina González
You might be close to the coast with your microalgae system. You grow microalgae, so you get salt because of fish everywhere. So then it ends up in the anaerobic digestion and then your microorganisms are going to fight with the salinity. Right. So there you have a second. I know type of perturbations and also because we are always feeding microalgae, you can when you grow microalgae, you can use pesticides and antibiotics to get your robust, our robust microalgae growth.
00:25:53:14 - 00:26:10:10
Cristina González
And at the end these chemicals we grow with the biomass, with these microalgae into the digesters. So these are the kind of chemicals we are also looking at to see how the microbial anaerobic population, they're these ones that they are degrading this organic matter, how do they behave?
00:26:10:14 - 00:26:12:08
Abigail Acton
Right? And what sort of things are you finding?
00:26:12:14 - 00:26:40:10
Cristina González
What we are seeing is how do they react? What are the signals that they are telling us that something is going wrong? So we look at biological signals, some chemical signals or physical signals. We take all kind of parameters for you too. We like to make this comparison to like a jenga tower. You know, these game blocks. Yeah, anaerobic digestion is something similar.
00:26:40:14 - 00:26:58:22
Cristina González
If you feed, no problem. If you remove one block, there is no problem. But if you keep on removing, you are going to reach a moment in which your power is going to be unstable. So this is our tipping point and when you remove one is not going to be gravelly any more, is going to be like the power is going down.
00:26:59:03 - 00:27:06:13
Cristina González
So this is exactly what we see that our methane production is going down is digester high speed.
00:27:06:15 - 00:27:23:21
Abigail Acton
So of course, the beauty of your work then obviously, is that you can identify these triggers and then what you communicate these to to waste management treatment plants or how does it work practically once you've discovered these interesting kind of connections, How'd you get the information out there so they can change what happens in the treatment?
00:27:23:22 - 00:28:00:02
Cristina González
Yeah, indeed. Yeah. This would be the ideal situation in which we can transfer the knowledge we have because we are in the second year. So we still have a lot of things to learn. But every time we go to a conference to event with the stakeholders, they are really interested on, okay, let me know what are the signals that they are going to tell you that they the system, they, they anaerobic digestion is going to fail because now operators just operate the plants without whenever they want to realize easily late, you can get the signals ahead.
00:28:00:04 - 00:28:02:19
Cristina González
This will be tremendously useful.
00:28:02:21 - 00:28:19:05
Abigail Acton
Yeah. No, clearly I think I think that's great. Absolutely. And then, you know, you'd have continuity of production and it would be a little tweak before everything got really super. Okay. You mentioned microalgae. I mean, tell me a little bit more about how they used in in biogas production.
00:28:19:05 - 00:28:56:19
Cristina González
We use microalgae in these because we see it as some microorganisms that can help you treating wastewater because conventionally you use the conventional system, you use aerobic bacteria to degrade the contaminants that you have in wastewater. But there aerobic. So therefore they need oxygen. And this can be like 50% of the total cost of their treatment. So instead, what we do is make them play bacteria to be bacteria with microalgae, because microalgae happen, they are like tiny plants, they uptake CO2 and they release oxygen.
00:28:56:22 - 00:29:00:09
Cristina González
So this is the oxygen that bacteria is going to need afterwards.
00:29:00:11 - 00:29:08:02
Abigail Acton
I see. And that's what you mean by feed. In fact, it's almost yeah, it's like it's it is a kind of feeding, but you mean basically giving them the air they need to breathe.
00:29:08:05 - 00:29:23:10
Cristina González
In their growth system. Yeah. If you're giving them the oxygen to degrade the contaminants and then you get the whole biomass you harvest these biomass microbes and bacteria, and you take them to their native digester, you degrade them and you get your biogas, your biofuel.
00:29:23:11 - 00:29:26:11
Abigail Acton
So in fact, there's like a double phase of use from them.
00:29:26:13 - 00:29:31:06
Cristina González
Yeah, in a win win situation, because you save waste water and you get their energy.
00:29:31:06 - 00:29:49:11
Abigail Acton
So, yeah, well, I love this other side. Like I said, right at the very beginning, it's all incredibly neat. I mean, we've got Yeray’s bags that are being recycled to make really strong containers for local communities to to use for for treatment. And you using the microalgae to to perpetuate the process. I think it's absolutely brilliant. Thank you very much.
00:29:49:13 - 00:30:06:22
Abigail Acton
You mentioned this a little bit, actually, when you said that there is interest when you go to conferences and so on with companies asking you for more information. Can I ask you I know that the project is ongoing and you're you know, as you say, in year two, but looking ahead, do you believe that there will be uptake of this idea?
00:30:06:22 - 00:30:19:18
Abigail Acton
Because it does sound very neat, but at the same time, it's a disruptive technology and we all know how difficult it is to get established ways to change. You know, Do you think that there will be a lot of uptake in interest when you're done?
00:30:19:20 - 00:30:43:10
Cristina González
I think there is going to be interest because we are seeing already that. Is there any time we go somewhere, it's like, okay, when are you going to have this model ready to know when my biological system, because at the end it's biology. You don't see the immediate is what we say. So we're talking about bacteria. So they are really small and you kind of know what is what they are doing.
00:30:43:10 - 00:31:13:12
Cristina González
And in fact, you see their response. So if you can have these predicting model that can tell you, okay, if you are having this chemical, your system is going around. So this I mean, for operators of plants, big companies like the one of get I mean these can be tremendously useful and yeah they are I hope I really hope that at the end of the project we can have this model and we can translate to companies.
00:31:13:13 - 00:31:31:09
Abigail Acton
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm particularly seeing a use a case scenario where you might, for example, have in an Arabic digester treating sewage sludge somewhere coastal, as you said, and maybe, for example, there is an ingress of salinity coming from the environment and they might not know that that's even happening because it's all invisible and bam, suddenly nothing's working.
00:31:31:11 - 00:31:51:14
Abigail Acton
Well, listen, thank you so much for your time. I personally, I'm really glad we've had this conversation because biofuels, biomass, even anaerobic digestion, these are terms that we see more and more frequently. But yeah, it's just fantastic having three experts here to explain what they actually mean, why they matter, and where we hope we're going to be going in the future.
00:31:51:16 - 00:31:53:20
Abigail Acton
So thanks very much for your time.
00:31:53:22 - 00:31:54:15
Cristina González
Thank you.
00:31:54:16 - 00:31:55:07
Petteri Salonen
Thank you.
00:31:55:12 - 00:31:56:09
Yeray Asensio
Thank you.
00:31:56:11 - 00:31:59:14
Abigail Acton
It's been lovely having you. I've really appreciated it. Bye bye.
00:32:01:21 - 00:32:26:04
Abigail Acton
This goes to me if you've enjoyed this podcast and are interested in the latest scientific research coming out of the EU, have a listen to previous episodes. Follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Are you curious about what other EU funded projects are doing to boost our use of biofuels? The Cordis website will give you an insight into the results of projects funded by Horizon 2020 and Horizon Europe that are working in this area.
00:32:26:06 - 00:32:47:20
Abigail Acton
The website has articles and interviews that explore the results of research being conducted in a very broad range of domains and subjects from antibiotics to anti-matter. There's something there for you. Maybe you're involved in a project or would like to apply for funding. Take a look at what others are doing in your domain. So come and check out the research that's revealing what makes our world tick.
00:32:47:22 - 00:32:55:12
Abigail Acton
We're always happy to hear from you. Drop us a line. Editorial at cordis dot Europa dot EU. Until next time.
Il rapporto delle Nazioni Unite(si apre in una nuova finestra), pubblicato a marzo 2023, non lascia spazio a dubbi: «In questo decennio, si dimostra fondamentale un’azione accelerata volta all’adattamento ai cambiamenti climatici per colmare il divario tra l’adattamento attuale e ciò che è ancora necessario fare. Nel frattempo, mantenere il riscaldamento a 1,5 °C al di sopra dei livelli pre-industriali richiede riduzioni forti, rapide e sostenute delle emissioni di gas a effetto serra in tutti i settori. Le emissioni dovrebbero essere già diminuite e dovranno almeno dimezzarsi entro il 2030, se si intende limitare il riscaldamento a 1,5 °C.» Oggi, diamo uno sguardo ai biocarburanti e al loro ruolo nel contribuire a raggiungere tali traguardi. Un biocarburante è un carburate che deriva dalla biomassa. Le biomasse, spesso prodotte come rifiuti organici di altri processi, possono a loro volta essere difficili da smaltire, finendo quindi in discarica o incenerite. Ci troviamo qui in compagnia di tre persone coinvolte in progetti sostenuti dall’UE che ci illustreranno come è possibile utilizzarle, come si può farlo e quali risultati si ottengono: Yeray Asensio(si apre in una nuova finestra) del reparto di innovazione e tecnologia della società di gestione delle acque, Aqualia(si apre in una nuova finestra), con sede in Spagna. La sua specializzazione risiede nel trattamento delle acque reflue, nella generazione di bioenergia e nell’uso dei fanghi di depurazione tramite tecnologie bio-elettrochimiche ed elettrochimiche adottate nel corso del progetto SCALIBUR. Cristina González(si apre in una nuova finestra) è responsabile dell’unità di Biotecnologie dell’Istituto di studi avanzati di Madrid(si apre in una nuova finestra). Nutre un interesse particolare per il recupero del carbonio dai rifiuti al fine di creare prodotti biochimici e biocarburanti utilizzando le alghe. González è alla guida del progetto PRODIGIO. Infine, il coordinatore del progetto BioFuel Fab, Petteri Salonen(si apre in una nuova finestra), è l’amministratore delegato di Finrenes(si apre in una nuova finestra), azienda finlandese che si occupa di trasformare i rifiuti di fibre lignee e vegetali in biometano e pellet di combustibile.
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