50. Turning to nature for urban solutions
Duration 00:34:50
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CORDIScovery podcast- Episode #50 - Turning to nature for urban solutions
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:34:15
Abigail Acton
Hello and welcome to this episode of CORDIScovery with me, Abigail Acton. You, dear listener, are likely to be living in a city about three quarters of the population in the EU are urbanites. Are you living in an inclusive area with parks and public spaces? You and the other local residents have had a say in designing?
00:00:34:15 - 00:00:58:08
Abigail Acton
Or is that something that seems out of your reach? Maybe your experience of city life is less comfortable. By 2050, approximately 80% of Europe's population is projected to be urban and given the concentrated population and infrastructure, cities are especially vulnerable to environmental stresses. We've already seen the impact of pollution, both noise and emissions, heatwaves, flash floods and soil contamination.
00:00:58:14 - 00:01:25:09
Abigail Acton
Global temperature change will exacerbate these issues. The impact on biodiversity and the consumption of natural resources are also reasons for why it's time to rethink our approach to urban development and planning to create greener cities that are more equitable and cohesive. So how can that be done? Nature based solutions or NBS, co-creation, Living labs. What do these terms mean and why are they important?
00:01:25:11 - 00:01:46:10
Abigail Acton
Let's turn to our three guests today, all of whom have received support from EU science funding. Darko Ferčej is head of the EU project unit within the Slovenian nonprofit Institute E-zavod. His area of interest is in transforming policy theories into practical changes that benefit people's lives in urban environments. Welcome, Darko.
00:01:46:12 - 00:01:48:01
Darko Ferčej
Thank you. Abigail.
00:01:48:03 - 00:02:01:22
Abigail Acton
Laura Fregolent is professor of urban planning at the University of Venice in Italy. Over the years, she has investigated the processes of urban transformation and sprawl, and the social impact of housing dynamics. Welcome, Laura.
00:02:01:24 - 00:02:03:16
Laura Fregolent
Good morning.
00:02:03:18 - 00:02:20:23
Abigail Acton
Gonçalo Canto Moniz is a professor of architecture and a researcher at the center for Social Studies at the University of Coimbra in Portugal. He's fascinated by the way that co-creation of nature based solutions within our cities can promote more inclusive urban neighborhoods. Hello, Gonçalo.
00:02:21:00 - 00:02:22:01
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Hello Abigail.
00:02:22:03 - 00:02:44:04
Abigail Acton
Hi. Good to have you here. Darko, I'm going to turn to you first. The UPSURGE project wants to make cities of tomorrow, places of environmental regeneration. And you're leading the way on what can be done through a series of real life demonstrations. The term nature based solutions Darko crops up quite frequently, but can be pinned down. What we actually mean by that expression?
00:02:44:06 - 00:03:13:07
Darko Ferčej
Yes. Basically, these are anything which is in the city and it looks green. It could be green trees, it could be parks, it could be green strips along the road, but it could be also something less usual. For example, green roofs, maybe green facades, maybe some water plants. And this all contributes to better quality of air and quality of water, and also better quality of life.
00:03:13:13 - 00:03:28:00
Darko Ferčej
It also improves the beautifulness of the cities. But sometimes this could be also something usable, something eatable. For example gardens or even, like balcony gardens, which you could have it in your home.
00:03:28:02 - 00:03:42:12
Abigail Acton
Lovely. Okay. That's super. It sounds like a great idea. But presumably there are there are barriers to being able to just turn as much as we possibly can green. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the challenges of greening our cities?
00:03:42:14 - 00:04:02:12
Darko Ferčej
Yes. We have, overcome some challenges, for example, technical ones. These were the challenge of the Belfast city in the UK. They, for example, wanted to install the urban gardens firstly on the ground, but they found out that the area was, polluted in the past. And that's why they had to use the raised gardens.
00:04:02:14 - 00:04:04:13
Abigail Acton
Oh, okay. So there was a problem with the soil.
00:04:04:15 - 00:04:05:22
Darko Ferčej
There was a problem with the soil?
00:04:05:22 - 00:04:06:02
Laura Fregolent
Yeah.
00:04:06:03 - 00:04:06:24
Abigail Acton
Oh, right. Okay.
00:04:07:02 - 00:04:29:24
Darko Ferčej
Another problem was also or another, issue was also in the city of the Katowice they wanted to build the green walls on the hospital, and later they found out that this green wall would do too much shade for the, doctors working inside. And they had to abandon this idea and then moved, more to the bus stop.
00:04:29:24 - 00:04:32:01
Darko Ferčej
So they greened the bus stops instead.
00:04:32:06 - 00:04:50:08
Abigail Acton
Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about some of the cities that you were involved within your project? Because I know that you're you're actually trying to do practical demonstrations of how these things can improve people's lives. And maybe you could also tell us a little bit about any local feedback or any kind of, comments that you're receiving from residents.
00:04:50:11 - 00:05:20:14
Darko Ferčej
Yeah. So we are focusing here on the five cities, Belfast from the UK and then Breda from the Netherlands. We have Budapest from Hungary. We also have Katowice which is from Poland and the Maribor from Slovenia. And in all these cities, they had different investments in the greenery or nature based solutions. For example, in Maribor they have improved of the streams.
00:05:20:14 - 00:05:42:17
Darko Ferčej
So it was the water related. And then they, they built around more than 100 trees to make the area more attractive to the local citizens. And people now can walk around this area, which they couldn't do before. For example, in Budapest, they had a big problem with rainwater in the summer. So they built the rain gardens.
00:05:42:21 - 00:05:56:01
Darko Ferčej
These these are equipped with special types of the plants, which, then in the case of heavy rain, they, improve the weather in the case that water goes into the ground and that there is no flooding anymore.
00:05:56:01 - 00:05:57:10
Abigail Acton
So they improve drainage?
00:05:57:12 - 00:06:17:11
Darko Ferčej
Yeah, they improve drainage. Exactly. And for example, in Breda in Netherlands, they are focusing more on the people area. So they built a green parking area, and also some green facades and some recreational parks, which are now more green that they were before.
00:06:17:13 - 00:06:34:02
Abigail Acton
When you see a green parking area, I mean, those great big car parks there, you know, they're obviously ugly. And sometimes even maybe in the evening one feels a little insecure crossing them, if you're the only person and you know they're not the most beautiful things in our city. So what did they do to make the car park greener?
00:06:34:03 - 00:06:34:23
Abigail Acton
How did that work?
00:06:35:03 - 00:06:56:05
Darko Ferčej
They can plant the trees. They can also, dedicate some area to the green grass, which was, before parking. Of course, you can lose some parking spaces. And this could also, you know, meet some resistance from the local area or the local residents. But at the end, the whole area is, more beautiful and probably also more safer.
00:06:56:10 - 00:06:56:23
Laura Fregolent
Yeah.
00:06:57:00 - 00:06:59:19
Abigail Acton
And also better for nature, I guess, for biodiversity as well.
00:06:59:22 - 00:07:03:07
Darko Ferčej
For the nature and also for us, because we are part of the nature.
00:07:03:12 - 00:07:07:00
Abigail Acton
Yeah, indeed. Any other examples you want to share?
00:07:07:02 - 00:07:33:09
Darko Ferčej
In Katowice for example, they have focusing on the bus stop. So before they were very like concrete looking one and they had, this huge problem. And of course, when people are waiting on the bus, they don't want to be, you know, in the big hit. So they, they made it very green. So they made green roofs on the these bus stops and also, green surrounding of the bus stops.
00:07:33:09 - 00:07:44:10
Darko Ferčej
So they were able to cool down, the area. And they are also monitoring it in all cities. We are monitoring the air quality and also the temperature.
00:07:44:12 - 00:07:54:09
Abigail Acton
And how are you monitoring? Because I know that in some ways you're monitoring in in ways that are not typical because we use sensors in our cities already. But I think you've got some other ideas about how to monitor.
00:07:54:15 - 00:07:58:20
Darko Ferčej
So, besides the sensors, we are using also the bees.
00:07:58:21 - 00:08:00:18
Abigail Acton
Bees. Wow. Yeah.
00:08:00:20 - 00:08:18:04
Darko Ferčej
We're using the pollen of the bees. Very small quantities. So the pollen is then analyzed, and, after the analysis, we can find out, if there are any pollutants in the area and also if there are any invasive species which do not belong to the area.
00:08:18:06 - 00:08:36:19
Abigail Acton
So it's not just to see whether the plants are being contaminated by pollution, but it also gives you an idea when you say invasive species, you mean invasive plants. Exactly right. That's interesting. What a great idea. Okay, Darko, there's a lot of work going on on these various, as you call them, living labs. So, I mean, the term is pretty self-explanatory in these cities.
00:08:36:21 - 00:08:56:23
Abigail Acton
Did you find that you're getting much feedback from local residents or people saying that they are, liking you've mentioned a little bit about the problem is reducing the number of parking spaces to make things better, you know, visually and environmentally. Are you getting much pushback from residents, or are people actually saying to you that they really appreciate the changes that are going on?
00:08:57:00 - 00:09:21:05
Darko Ferčej
Yes. Basically. Well, if the people are asked, they are happy to answer. So people generally like to be involved in decision making. Just many times the policymakers are not hearing them. So we are using this approach to ask people what they want and based on their will, we are also making the investments.
00:09:21:10 - 00:09:21:21
Abigail Acton
Right.
00:09:21:21 - 00:09:25:02
Darko Ferčej
So we are doing what people are are keen to do.
00:09:25:02 - 00:09:35:00
Abigail Acton
Right? Which of course, I guess then also means that the solutions are more respected and more cared for by local residents because they've had a part in in deciding the changes they want.
00:09:35:02 - 00:09:45:06
Darko Ferčej
Exactly. This is, the main aim of the involvement of the, of the people. So if they are part of the decision, they also like this decision more because it is their decision.
00:09:45:09 - 00:09:52:15
Abigail Acton
That's right. This, ownership. Thank you for explaining the work. That's fascinating. Did you have any problems encouraging local communities to participate?
00:09:52:17 - 00:10:19:19
Darko Ferčej
Yes. Sometimes, there are also the problems there, because we have focusing on very different types of the communities. We have focused on the elderly, on the children, but in some cases, in, in Breda, they, focused also on the migrant women. And there are some challenges, especially how to, approach to them and, how to get their opinion right.
00:10:19:19 - 00:10:24:14
Abigail Acton
So there's some sort of cultural sensitivities around actually trying to include everybody.
00:10:24:14 - 00:10:48:15
Darko Ferčej
Yes, exactly. So if there are different cultures, we have to be very careful, also to respect their culture and to ask the right questions and also to approach to the right way in the right time. They had to be very careful. So they have, established a different, informational points, and they had to wait that, women approach then.
00:10:48:18 - 00:10:52:23
Abigail Acton
Right,Indeed. Okay. And has that been happening? Is it is it is it working?
00:10:53:03 - 00:11:09:20
Darko Ferčej
Yes, of course it is working. Just it maybe takes a little bit more time. And also we have to have, you know, the right type of the persons who are engaging. So if, if you are an engaging migrant woman, then you also have to have the, the women, who are engaging with them.
00:11:09:24 - 00:11:30:10
Abigail Acton
Right. Excellent. That's a that's an interesting point. It's so it's easy to say that we need everybody to participate, but different groups need to be approached in different ways. Absolutely. Thank you very much. Laura I'm going to turn to you because actually, your work a little bit overlaps with what we've just been discussing. The NEIGHBOURCHANGE Project considered how new urban planning approaches can encourage social cohesion.
00:11:30:12 - 00:11:39:13
Abigail Acton
So what's the problem with the current approaches we have to urban planning, please, Laura. And regeneration. Why isn't what we doing now working so well?
00:11:39:15 - 00:12:41:11
Laura Fregolent
Well, in in a few words, I think that the top down solution without the interaction with people is a problem. Many European public institutions have been exploring ways to to involve communities in our planning processes at or, participatory solution and tourists in different way, different talks of of planning and of participation. But even if, community based the niche be offered a very, a very huge, a very a broader range of skills and experience, beyond the usual experts because, we are more familiar with the, with the experts instead of, common people instead of community, the most vulnerable groups, and particularly the poorest
00:12:41:11 - 00:13:15:21
Laura Fregolent
group and the ethnic minorities, for example, face barriers to participation. And, in NEIGHBOURCHANGE research project, we try to explore the possibility of a more inclusive governance, at the local level in particular, because this is the level that we explore in particular, even if we, take into account the different levels of, of governance.
00:13:15:21 - 00:13:21:03
Laura Fregolent
But well local governance was, our point of, of research.
00:13:21:09 - 00:13:42:22
Abigail Acton
Excellent. So may I ask you, when you say you were looking at different ways to involve local communities? And here we touch a little bit what Darko was saying, for example, in Britain where they were trying to involve the the input, encourage the input from migrant women. In your case, can you give me some examples, actually, of the kind of communication you're talking about with local residents from groups who might be more vulnerable?
00:13:43:02 - 00:13:45:22
Abigail Acton
Give some examples of what you mean you're mentioning here.
00:13:45:24 - 00:14:18:07
Laura Fregolent
Yeah. Well, it's a participatory process. It is sometimes difficult and require a lot of energy. And so also for that, usually are not so common in process in general, in policy process in general and in urban planning, too. And for example, example of a community is of a different level, but also, for example, community and association.
00:14:18:09 - 00:14:39:08
Laura Fregolent
Involved in question connected with the territorial transformation that, could be involved in the process to modify, for example, the design for the center, modify the project, the of land, of territory, of, of the city or of the neighborhood, of course.
00:14:39:10 - 00:14:50:23
Abigail Acton
Has not happened effectively in I know that you're based in Venice, but in Venice or around Venice, can you think of some examples where neighborhoods have been changed, but with consultation with local residents?
00:14:50:24 - 00:15:06:12
Laura Fregolent
Well, for example, in Venice, not properly involved, but there is a strong, very strong, involvement of citizens in community and association, for example, against tourist.
00:15:06:14 - 00:15:08:13
Abigail Acton
Yes. Which is a huge problem for you. Yeah.
00:15:08:13 - 00:15:10:22
Laura Fregolent
I think a tourism and not tourist. Not the.
00:15:10:23 - 00:15:11:23
Abigail Acton
No. No. Sure. Yeah.
00:15:11:24 - 00:15:37:17
Laura Fregolent
Not against people, but against that phenomenon. Yeah. And we can say that we, we, we have, some results. No, not yet, but there is a discussion with the institution and the institution at the different level. And so let me say we are in a process and the process never ended. Yes, absolutely.
00:15:37:22 - 00:15:54:15
Abigail Acton
I'm just wondering whether you can see some, some cases in the, in Venice or in the area around, because I know you're also interested in the notion of urban sprawl, where the voices of people were heard and something changed. But, can you tell me a little bit then also about the notion of co-creation? Because that is what we're talking about here.
00:15:54:15 - 00:16:00:08
Abigail Acton
Tell me what what does co-creation mean? Yeah. How is it happening in Venice?
00:16:00:10 - 00:16:34:04
Laura Fregolent
Well, co-creation means, collaboration means, to, as I said before, not a top down decision, but, a bottom up process. And so politician, or or the expert, can suggest, can have an idea, can propose an idea, but, have to, to build, the, the concept that we the, the community and with the, the different people involved, the, the, the different, actors, the different stakeholders involved.
00:16:34:05 - 00:16:38:03
Laura Fregolent
The two. Yeah. This is, I think, the way to work.
00:16:38:08 - 00:16:48:18
Abigail Acton
Right? Absolutely. Did you notice that there was some reluctance from planning authorities and from local municipalities to get involved with the decision making process with the local residents?
00:16:48:18 - 00:17:22:09
Laura Fregolent
Well, local authorities, tried to solve, the question or, using the, the tools that they know better. And the tools that they know better is that I decide and, you try to implement it, you community, you, professional practitioners, and, well, so, it's I think it's a cultural process that we have to put on the table.
00:17:22:11 - 00:17:52:24
Laura Fregolent
Yeah, we have to to work about that and, try to, to involve more also also, the administration, the politician, because in the, in, in this research project, the, the, the main topic was to the innovation of governance and how the institution may learn from the experience and may learn from the community.
00:17:53:01 - 00:17:59:13
Abigail Acton
And finally, what did you find? I mean, what what would be the one key takeaway from your project? Do you think?
00:17:59:13 - 00:18:10:10
Laura Fregolent
Well, in a certain way, the idea that, this is possible in a slogan, a citizen can make a difference.
00:18:10:12 - 00:18:15:19
Abigail Acton
And I hope that they're accepting that concept. As you say, it's an ongoing process.
00:18:15:20 - 00:18:16:05
Laura Fregolent
Yeah.
00:18:16:08 - 00:18:23:02
Abigail Acton
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Thank you very much. That's very interesting. Does anyone have any comments or questions for Laura? Yeah. Gonçalo.
00:18:23:07 - 00:18:50:12
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Hi, Laura. Yeah, I'm, I'm very interested in in your in your research. And I have some questions that of course they, they came also from our experience, one is related about, this working with people, so developing other urban planning, ways of doing, did you find also a challenge on the, on the tools that usually architects and urban planners use?
00:18:50:14 - 00:19:15:16
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Did you have to try to find other ways of doing it? So that's, that's one question. And, and the other question is related to the inclusive governance model. Usually I use co-governance. I don't know if this is familiar to you. We have also this technical difference. But I don't know. But someone that I found very interesting in this process is the technicians of the municipality.
00:19:15:16 - 00:19:23:08
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
So we have the, the elected people, but we have the municipal technicians that, in fact are the ones that are in the ground.
00:19:23:10 - 00:19:31:07
Abigail Acton
Can you give me some example, Gonçalo, of the kind of technicians that you're talking about, what sort of area? You mean like people who are responsible for putting in water pipes or.
00:19:31:10 - 00:19:55:10
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Yeah, the people that work in the municipality, at the urbanism department, at the environmental department, at the at the educational department, so that the the technicians, the staff of the municipality, that usually they have a different position from the elected people and sometimes they are allies, other times they are not. What what did you found about this?
00:19:55:12 - 00:20:37:14
Laura Fregolent
Thank you, Gonçalo for your question and and suggestion to, well, co-governance, it's it's difficult. It's difficult because, as you very well explained, there are different level, technical level, there is a problem also of knowledge from the community, for example, not on the technical project and the technical knowledge from the, the, the the community now because, some knowledge is part of some, some parts of the institution and, usually you are not, at the same level of knowledge.
00:20:37:14 - 00:21:12:01
Laura Fregolent
Now, this is a problem. And for that, for example, the community has to be helped, has to be supported by experts, by urban planner, that have a different role, have to try to be involved in the process in a different way. You know, about the tools. Also that is a very, a very important question because we have to find other tools, in particular, thinking about the tools of planning that we use.
00:21:12:03 - 00:21:16:11
Laura Fregolent
But really we have to work about the inclusion.
00:21:16:11 - 00:21:37:09
Abigail Acton
Wonderful. Thank you. Yes, indeed. So it's partly getting people's voices heard. But first of all, those voices have to be raised. In other words, you have to have those voices in the first place, if you're going to talk about how to then have those voices heard. Indeed. And again, we go back to Docker's comments earlier about the right way to approach, to approach certain groups and and to be sensitive to their reactions.
00:21:37:11 - 00:22:01:17
Abigail Acton
Thank you very much, Gonçalo, I'm going to turn to you now. URBiNAT your project focuses on the regeneration and integration of deprived social housing, urban developments through an innovative and inclusive catalog. I could say really range of nature based solutions, and we now know what that means. Thank you very much, Darko. So Gonçalo, nature based solutions have been frequently considered from the environmental science aspect.
00:22:01:17 - 00:22:11:11
Abigail Acton
Now, I know that your project was interested in approaching the concept from a social science direction. Does it matter? Is there such a big difference? Can you explain?
00:22:11:13 - 00:22:41:03
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Thank you, thank you, Abigail. Yeah, I think it's, it tries to bring another dimension to nature based solutions. That was our challenge with URBiNAT project and, and it was welcomed by the, by the Commission, being proposed by a social science institute. So the idea was to understand how the nature based solutions, could be of course, focus on, on the grouping dimension on, on the environmental dimension, but also combine it with the social one.
00:22:41:09 - 00:23:13:16
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Let's say that we need to have green, as Darko explained very well, but we have also to have blue and maybe red our bloods in this, in this solution. So that's what we try to to push with the, with our project. And it was very interesting because many times when we approached the communities, they said, okay, we know that you are going to do very well designed green infrastructures, but we want to understand how we are going to use and we how we are going to take advantage of it.
00:23:13:18 - 00:23:34:09
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
So and this, this really made a difference in our projects that we developed also in several cities, where people try to always link the green to nature with the social dimension, with social activities that can have an educational approach or cultural or whatever.
00:23:34:09 - 00:23:49:07
Abigail Acton
Wonderful. Thank you very much. Can you give us some examples of that then? I know you used the term living labs as well. So tell me a little bit about the idea of taking these concepts and actually putting them on the ground. And making them work.
00:23:49:11 - 00:24:15:06
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Yeah, we we challenge the communities to think about, not green corridors, but healthy corridors. So these healthy corridors was a way of, tried to approach the social dimension, putting the focus on the impact. So all the solutions, they are always designed thinking about the impact they will have on people's life.
00:24:15:06 - 00:24:17:06
Abigail Acton
What's the healthy corridor? What is this?
00:24:17:07 - 00:24:39:10
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
In fact, it's an open concept, because it was, interpreted by the, the different communities in their own way, but it tries to develop a cluster of NBS, a cluster of solutions that need to work together. And this is very important because nature based solutions, usually they don't work by itself. They need to be understood as a cluster.
00:24:39:12 - 00:25:09:07
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
And they always try to combine the the green dimension with the social one, for instance, of course we need European gardens. But, what what can we do with the European gardens? We can have a community kitchen. We can have, social markets. And this works in a circle, you know, so we produce, we we share social markets, we share or we, we sell by with the fair prices and then we eat together.
00:25:09:09 - 00:25:19:15
Abigail Acton
Can you give me some examples of that? Because I think that you mentioned in a previous conversation we had how that helps social inclusion with, minority groups. Can you tell me about that, please? Yeah.
00:25:19:17 - 00:25:45:09
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
This is very important because when, when we, challenge people to, to participate and to, co-create, we we, in fact, we challenge them to be involved in the long process where they identify the needs, they design the solutions, they implement, and they monitor. So it means that they they are involved in these projects for in the case of URBiNAT for six years.
00:25:45:09 - 00:26:09:21
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
And this is quite a challenge. So they need to be motivated. They need to understand that they will win not only direct profits, as they will have access for better vegetables, for instance, but they will also be part of a community. And many times, for instance, in these social markets, people don't sell almost anything, but they are there because they want to be part of the community.
00:26:09:21 - 00:26:35:00
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
They want to build something together. They want to belong to, to these neighborhoods that in our case they were social housing neighbors. So they were deprived. In this sense, there was a lack of justice, of inequalities, but they they have a strong sense of belonging. So they want to be part of this community, and they want the community to grow and to face their challenge, this social challenge together.
00:26:35:02 - 00:26:38:22
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
And they see nature as an opportunity to make this chain.
00:26:38:22 - 00:26:49:09
Abigail Acton
Lovely, and I believe you mentioned that, you know, obviously people come with their own strengths. So I think you mentioned one time that there was a lady who used to come regularly who was very good at cooking. Can you tell me about that story?
00:26:49:11 - 00:27:13:11
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Yes. These ladies that they are, they are in fact, the power of these communities. We see women. We have also a beautiful story because I don't know, we have we had a revolution in Portugal in 74. And we always say that the revolution was made by women. So the men were at the war and in the colonial times and women were fighting for their houses.
00:27:13:13 - 00:27:38:10
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
And this is very strong in Portuguese communities, but we see it across the world. So people, women, they really want to change their neighborhood more than men. In fact, and this is very interesting. So when they came to participate in this process, they, they bring their knowledge and they want to share their knowledge. So there is a kind of generosity also with, with the community.
00:27:38:10 - 00:27:53:10
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
So this, this idea of cooking is very strong when we have participatory dynamics, along this process. So cooking is becoming a way of engaging people and being part of a transformative process.
00:27:53:16 - 00:28:09:00
Abigail Acton
Yeah. And also brings in, I would imagine, the migrant community, as you mentioned to me in an earlier conversation, you have a a lady who comes and cooks regularly at one of these green garden markets that you were saying and offering her skills and her her culture to other people. I think it's a wonderful story.
00:28:09:01 - 00:28:33:13
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Yes. People in these community events and when we are working in social housing areas, usually we have people with different backgrounds with different origins. They cooking is a way of bringing that culture to the events, to share also the culture and the way of talking about their roots and, and make their roots presence in the community.
00:28:33:15 - 00:28:36:12
Abigail Acton
Yeah. Wonderful. So social cohesion big.
00:28:36:13 - 00:29:09:01
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Yeah. Yeah. And the living labs that you mentioned, they are very important because in fact, the we always understood labs as a, as an academic structure. So the idea of the living labs is, is moving this academic structure to the communities. So it's, it's in fact a way of creating a laboratory in the community that will not only work in these projects that in the case of Urbino, but they will have they are empowered to understand how they can develop future projects together.
00:29:09:03 - 00:29:48:09
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
So it's it's very important because in this life, in the labs that we activate, we establish connections, for instance with municipalities. So there are contact points with the university, the with the municipality, with companies. So these kind of relations, networks, they stay in the community and they are activated in the in the future project. So, this is the big challenge of the living labs is to empower communities to design, to co-create new solutions after the projects leave, leave, because this is always a challenge when we leave the communities, what stays there and this idea of the living lab, I think it's the most powerful one.
00:29:48:09 - 00:29:51:19
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
It's a challenge. But it's the most powerful one.
00:29:51:24 - 00:30:13:13
Abigail Acton
That's excellent. Thank you so much. You explain that really well, Gonzalo, I appreciate that. And the work you're doing is so interesting. There are some other ideas as well as the gardens. I know that you were involved in green amphitheaters and pedestrian bridges that link areas together in ways that were previously, you know, how to navigate across large roads and all the rest of it, just making our cities better places in which to live.
00:30:13:13 - 00:30:18:24
Abigail Acton
Thank you for that. Does anyone have any questions for Gonçalo? Yeah. Darko. What would you like to ask?
00:30:18:24 - 00:30:42:09
Darko Ferčej
Yes. Thank you. I think that our projects are quite similar, and I was wondering who you were also mentioning before. What do you think? How, you and also us, could approach this living lab to live also after the project life. How could we engage people after the project has ended?
00:30:42:11 - 00:31:12:13
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for the question. In fact, it's related with the co-governance model that I was exploring a little bit with Laura because the co-governance model that we tried to develop, it was based on on a structure of working groups. So very early in the project we established these working groups and these working groups that are climatically related, according to the people's wish, they start to create relations between them.
00:31:12:15 - 00:31:38:09
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
And, and they not only develop proposals for URBiNAT, but they start to develop other proposals. And in fact, they made other applications because they want the projects to, to continue. So they start to, to apply for, for instance, participatory budget at the municipalities, they start to apply for a national finance for NGOs’ projects.
00:31:38:11 - 00:32:00:19
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
So in fact, these working groups, when the project leaves, they continue to work together. In fact, most of them, they are activated by different NGOs that sometimes they say the big thing of URBiNAT was to put us working together because we we knew that we exist. We are in the same territory, but we didn't work together. And now we work together.
00:32:00:21 - 00:32:30:20
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
So they they only say that this is all right, we win. And what we see is after the project ended because the project ended last year, we see that they are still working together to continue developing, for instance, the social market. It's still going on, but they are now involved in other projects together. People for instance, NGOs that, are related with health care, others that are related with urban gardens or cultural activities.
00:32:30:22 - 00:32:37:10
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Now they are doing their projects. And this is I think it means that the the lab is is alive.
00:32:37:15 - 00:32:53:09
Abigail Acton
The living lab is living. That's excellent. Thank you so much, all of you, for your wonderful work and and interesting insights, both from the practical element through to the theory and then back again to the practical. Much, much appreciated. Thank you very much for being with us today.
00:32:53:10 - 00:32:54:03
Darko Ferčej
Thank you Abigail.
00:32:54:06 - 00:32:56:21
Laura Fregolent
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you're very welcome.
00:32:56:22 - 00:32:58:04
Abigail Acton
Take care. Goodbye.
00:32:58:04 - 00:32:58:19
Darko Ferčej
Goodbye.
00:32:58:21 - 00:33:02:15
All
Goodbye.
00:33:02:17 - 00:33:26:08
Abigail Acton
If you've enjoyed this podcast, follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and check out the podcast homepage on the CORDIS website. Subscribe to make sure the hottest research and EU funded science isn't passing you by. And if you're enjoying listening, why not spread the word? We've talked about the latest technology to reduce the risk of fires on roll on roll off ferries, and the skin patch that can test for TB.
00:33:26:10 - 00:33:47:17
Abigail Acton
In our last 49 episodes, there'll be something that to tweak your curiosity, perhaps you want to know what other EU funded projects are doing to improve the quality of life in our cities? The CORDIS website will give you an insight into the results of projects funded by Horizon 2020 and Horizon Europe that are working in this area. Maybe you're involved in a project or would like to apply for funding.
00:33:47:19 - 00:34:05:21
Abigail Acton
Take a look at what others are doing in your domain. So come and check out the research that's revealing what makes our world tick. We're always happy to hear from you. Drop us a line at editorial@cordis.europa.eu. Until next time.
This is an AI transcription.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:34:15
Abigail Acton
Hello and welcome to this episode of CORDIScovery with me, Abigail Acton. You, dear listener, are likely to be living in a city about three quarters of the population in the EU are urbanites. Are you living in an inclusive area with parks and public spaces? You and the other local residents have had a say in designing?
00:00:34:15 - 00:00:58:08
Abigail Acton
Or is that something that seems out of your reach? Maybe your experience of city life is less comfortable. By 2050, approximately 80% of Europe's population is projected to be urban and given the concentrated population and infrastructure, cities are especially vulnerable to environmental stresses. We've already seen the impact of pollution, both noise and emissions, heatwaves, flash floods and soil contamination.
00:00:58:14 - 00:01:25:09
Abigail Acton
Global temperature change will exacerbate these issues. The impact on biodiversity and the consumption of natural resources are also reasons for why it's time to rethink our approach to urban development and planning to create greener cities that are more equitable and cohesive. So how can that be done? Nature based solutions or NBS, co-creation, Living labs. What do these terms mean and why are they important?
00:01:25:11 - 00:01:46:10
Abigail Acton
Let's turn to our three guests today, all of whom have received support from EU science funding. Darko Ferčej is head of the EU project unit within the Slovenian nonprofit Institute E-zavod. His area of interest is in transforming policy theories into practical changes that benefit people's lives in urban environments. Welcome, Darko.
00:01:46:12 - 00:01:48:01
Darko Ferčej
Thank you. Abigail.
00:01:48:03 - 00:02:01:22
Abigail Acton
Laura Fregolent is professor of urban planning at the University of Venice in Italy. Over the years, she has investigated the processes of urban transformation and sprawl, and the social impact of housing dynamics. Welcome, Laura.
00:02:01:24 - 00:02:03:16
Laura Fregolent
Good morning.
00:02:03:18 - 00:02:20:23
Abigail Acton
Gonçalo Canto Moniz is a professor of architecture and a researcher at the center for Social Studies at the University of Coimbra in Portugal. He's fascinated by the way that co-creation of nature based solutions within our cities can promote more inclusive urban neighborhoods. Hello, Gonçalo.
00:02:21:00 - 00:02:22:01
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Hello Abigail.
00:02:22:03 - 00:02:44:04
Abigail Acton
Hi. Good to have you here. Darko, I'm going to turn to you first. The UPSURGE project wants to make cities of tomorrow, places of environmental regeneration. And you're leading the way on what can be done through a series of real life demonstrations. The term nature based solutions Darko crops up quite frequently, but can be pinned down. What we actually mean by that expression?
00:02:44:06 - 00:03:13:07
Darko Ferčej
Yes. Basically, these are anything which is in the city and it looks green. It could be green trees, it could be parks, it could be green strips along the road, but it could be also something less usual. For example, green roofs, maybe green facades, maybe some water plants. And this all contributes to better quality of air and quality of water, and also better quality of life.
00:03:13:13 - 00:03:28:00
Darko Ferčej
It also improves the beautifulness of the cities. But sometimes this could be also something usable, something eatable. For example gardens or even, like balcony gardens, which you could have it in your home.
00:03:28:02 - 00:03:42:12
Abigail Acton
Lovely. Okay. That's super. It sounds like a great idea. But presumably there are there are barriers to being able to just turn as much as we possibly can green. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the challenges of greening our cities?
00:03:42:14 - 00:04:02:12
Darko Ferčej
Yes. We have, overcome some challenges, for example, technical ones. These were the challenge of the Belfast city in the UK. They, for example, wanted to install the urban gardens firstly on the ground, but they found out that the area was, polluted in the past. And that's why they had to use the raised gardens.
00:04:02:14 - 00:04:04:13
Abigail Acton
Oh, okay. So there was a problem with the soil.
00:04:04:15 - 00:04:05:22
Darko Ferčej
There was a problem with the soil?
00:04:05:22 - 00:04:06:02
Laura Fregolent
Yeah.
00:04:06:03 - 00:04:06:24
Abigail Acton
Oh, right. Okay.
00:04:07:02 - 00:04:29:24
Darko Ferčej
Another problem was also or another, issue was also in the city of the Katowice they wanted to build the green walls on the hospital, and later they found out that this green wall would do too much shade for the, doctors working inside. And they had to abandon this idea and then moved, more to the bus stop.
00:04:29:24 - 00:04:32:01
Darko Ferčej
So they greened the bus stops instead.
00:04:32:06 - 00:04:50:08
Abigail Acton
Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about some of the cities that you were involved within your project? Because I know that you're you're actually trying to do practical demonstrations of how these things can improve people's lives. And maybe you could also tell us a little bit about any local feedback or any kind of, comments that you're receiving from residents.
00:04:50:11 - 00:05:20:14
Darko Ferčej
Yeah. So we are focusing here on the five cities, Belfast from the UK and then Breda from the Netherlands. We have Budapest from Hungary. We also have Katowice which is from Poland and the Maribor from Slovenia. And in all these cities, they had different investments in the greenery or nature based solutions. For example, in Maribor they have improved of the streams.
00:05:20:14 - 00:05:42:17
Darko Ferčej
So it was the water related. And then they, they built around more than 100 trees to make the area more attractive to the local citizens. And people now can walk around this area, which they couldn't do before. For example, in Budapest, they had a big problem with rainwater in the summer. So they built the rain gardens.
00:05:42:21 - 00:05:56:01
Darko Ferčej
These these are equipped with special types of the plants, which, then in the case of heavy rain, they, improve the weather in the case that water goes into the ground and that there is no flooding anymore.
00:05:56:01 - 00:05:57:10
Abigail Acton
So they improve drainage?
00:05:57:12 - 00:06:17:11
Darko Ferčej
Yeah, they improve drainage. Exactly. And for example, in Breda in Netherlands, they are focusing more on the people area. So they built a green parking area, and also some green facades and some recreational parks, which are now more green that they were before.
00:06:17:13 - 00:06:34:02
Abigail Acton
When you see a green parking area, I mean, those great big car parks there, you know, they're obviously ugly. And sometimes even maybe in the evening one feels a little insecure crossing them, if you're the only person and you know they're not the most beautiful things in our city. So what did they do to make the car park greener?
00:06:34:03 - 00:06:34:23
Abigail Acton
How did that work?
00:06:35:03 - 00:06:56:05
Darko Ferčej
They can plant the trees. They can also, dedicate some area to the green grass, which was, before parking. Of course, you can lose some parking spaces. And this could also, you know, meet some resistance from the local area or the local residents. But at the end, the whole area is, more beautiful and probably also more safer.
00:06:56:10 - 00:06:56:23
Laura Fregolent
Yeah.
00:06:57:00 - 00:06:59:19
Abigail Acton
And also better for nature, I guess, for biodiversity as well.
00:06:59:22 - 00:07:03:07
Darko Ferčej
For the nature and also for us, because we are part of the nature.
00:07:03:12 - 00:07:07:00
Abigail Acton
Yeah, indeed. Any other examples you want to share?
00:07:07:02 - 00:07:33:09
Darko Ferčej
In Katowice for example, they have focusing on the bus stop. So before they were very like concrete looking one and they had, this huge problem. And of course, when people are waiting on the bus, they don't want to be, you know, in the big hit. So they, they made it very green. So they made green roofs on the these bus stops and also, green surrounding of the bus stops.
00:07:33:09 - 00:07:44:10
Darko Ferčej
So they were able to cool down, the area. And they are also monitoring it in all cities. We are monitoring the air quality and also the temperature.
00:07:44:12 - 00:07:54:09
Abigail Acton
And how are you monitoring? Because I know that in some ways you're monitoring in in ways that are not typical because we use sensors in our cities already. But I think you've got some other ideas about how to monitor.
00:07:54:15 - 00:07:58:20
Darko Ferčej
So, besides the sensors, we are using also the bees.
00:07:58:21 - 00:08:00:18
Abigail Acton
Bees. Wow. Yeah.
00:08:00:20 - 00:08:18:04
Darko Ferčej
We're using the pollen of the bees. Very small quantities. So the pollen is then analyzed, and, after the analysis, we can find out, if there are any pollutants in the area and also if there are any invasive species which do not belong to the area.
00:08:18:06 - 00:08:36:19
Abigail Acton
So it's not just to see whether the plants are being contaminated by pollution, but it also gives you an idea when you say invasive species, you mean invasive plants. Exactly right. That's interesting. What a great idea. Okay, Darko, there's a lot of work going on on these various, as you call them, living labs. So, I mean, the term is pretty self-explanatory in these cities.
00:08:36:21 - 00:08:56:23
Abigail Acton
Did you find that you're getting much feedback from local residents or people saying that they are, liking you've mentioned a little bit about the problem is reducing the number of parking spaces to make things better, you know, visually and environmentally. Are you getting much pushback from residents, or are people actually saying to you that they really appreciate the changes that are going on?
00:08:57:00 - 00:09:21:05
Darko Ferčej
Yes. Basically. Well, if the people are asked, they are happy to answer. So people generally like to be involved in decision making. Just many times the policymakers are not hearing them. So we are using this approach to ask people what they want and based on their will, we are also making the investments.
00:09:21:10 - 00:09:21:21
Abigail Acton
Right.
00:09:21:21 - 00:09:25:02
Darko Ferčej
So we are doing what people are are keen to do.
00:09:25:02 - 00:09:35:00
Abigail Acton
Right? Which of course, I guess then also means that the solutions are more respected and more cared for by local residents because they've had a part in in deciding the changes they want.
00:09:35:02 - 00:09:45:06
Darko Ferčej
Exactly. This is, the main aim of the involvement of the, of the people. So if they are part of the decision, they also like this decision more because it is their decision.
00:09:45:09 - 00:09:52:15
Abigail Acton
That's right. This, ownership. Thank you for explaining the work. That's fascinating. Did you have any problems encouraging local communities to participate?
00:09:52:17 - 00:10:19:19
Darko Ferčej
Yes. Sometimes, there are also the problems there, because we have focusing on very different types of the communities. We have focused on the elderly, on the children, but in some cases, in, in Breda, they, focused also on the migrant women. And there are some challenges, especially how to, approach to them and, how to get their opinion right.
00:10:19:19 - 00:10:24:14
Abigail Acton
So there's some sort of cultural sensitivities around actually trying to include everybody.
00:10:24:14 - 00:10:48:15
Darko Ferčej
Yes, exactly. So if there are different cultures, we have to be very careful, also to respect their culture and to ask the right questions and also to approach to the right way in the right time. They had to be very careful. So they have, established a different, informational points, and they had to wait that, women approach then.
00:10:48:18 - 00:10:52:23
Abigail Acton
Right,Indeed. Okay. And has that been happening? Is it is it is it working?
00:10:53:03 - 00:11:09:20
Darko Ferčej
Yes, of course it is working. Just it maybe takes a little bit more time. And also we have to have, you know, the right type of the persons who are engaging. So if, if you are an engaging migrant woman, then you also have to have the, the women, who are engaging with them.
00:11:09:24 - 00:11:30:10
Abigail Acton
Right. Excellent. That's a that's an interesting point. It's so it's easy to say that we need everybody to participate, but different groups need to be approached in different ways. Absolutely. Thank you very much. Laura I'm going to turn to you because actually, your work a little bit overlaps with what we've just been discussing. The NEIGHBOURCHANGE Project considered how new urban planning approaches can encourage social cohesion.
00:11:30:12 - 00:11:39:13
Abigail Acton
So what's the problem with the current approaches we have to urban planning, please, Laura. And regeneration. Why isn't what we doing now working so well?
00:11:39:15 - 00:12:41:11
Laura Fregolent
Well, in in a few words, I think that the top down solution without the interaction with people is a problem. Many European public institutions have been exploring ways to to involve communities in our planning processes at or, participatory solution and tourists in different way, different talks of of planning and of participation. But even if, community based the niche be offered a very, a very huge, a very a broader range of skills and experience, beyond the usual experts because, we are more familiar with the, with the experts instead of, common people instead of community, the most vulnerable groups, and particularly the poorest
00:12:41:11 - 00:13:15:21
Laura Fregolent
group and the ethnic minorities, for example, face barriers to participation. And, in NEIGHBOURCHANGE research project, we try to explore the possibility of a more inclusive governance, at the local level in particular, because this is the level that we explore in particular, even if we, take into account the different levels of, of governance.
00:13:15:21 - 00:13:21:03
Laura Fregolent
But well local governance was, our point of, of research.
00:13:21:09 - 00:13:42:22
Abigail Acton
Excellent. So may I ask you, when you say you were looking at different ways to involve local communities? And here we touch a little bit what Darko was saying, for example, in Britain where they were trying to involve the the input, encourage the input from migrant women. In your case, can you give me some examples, actually, of the kind of communication you're talking about with local residents from groups who might be more vulnerable?
00:13:43:02 - 00:13:45:22
Abigail Acton
Give some examples of what you mean you're mentioning here.
00:13:45:24 - 00:14:18:07
Laura Fregolent
Yeah. Well, it's a participatory process. It is sometimes difficult and require a lot of energy. And so also for that, usually are not so common in process in general, in policy process in general and in urban planning, too. And for example, example of a community is of a different level, but also, for example, community and association.
00:14:18:09 - 00:14:39:08
Laura Fregolent
Involved in question connected with the territorial transformation that, could be involved in the process to modify, for example, the design for the center, modify the project, the of land, of territory, of, of the city or of the neighborhood, of course.
00:14:39:10 - 00:14:50:23
Abigail Acton
Has not happened effectively in I know that you're based in Venice, but in Venice or around Venice, can you think of some examples where neighborhoods have been changed, but with consultation with local residents?
00:14:50:24 - 00:15:06:12
Laura Fregolent
Well, for example, in Venice, not properly involved, but there is a strong, very strong, involvement of citizens in community and association, for example, against tourist.
00:15:06:14 - 00:15:08:13
Abigail Acton
Yes. Which is a huge problem for you. Yeah.
00:15:08:13 - 00:15:10:22
Laura Fregolent
I think a tourism and not tourist. Not the.
00:15:10:23 - 00:15:11:23
Abigail Acton
No. No. Sure. Yeah.
00:15:11:24 - 00:15:37:17
Laura Fregolent
Not against people, but against that phenomenon. Yeah. And we can say that we, we, we have, some results. No, not yet, but there is a discussion with the institution and the institution at the different level. And so let me say we are in a process and the process never ended. Yes, absolutely.
00:15:37:22 - 00:15:54:15
Abigail Acton
I'm just wondering whether you can see some, some cases in the, in Venice or in the area around, because I know you're also interested in the notion of urban sprawl, where the voices of people were heard and something changed. But, can you tell me a little bit then also about the notion of co-creation? Because that is what we're talking about here.
00:15:54:15 - 00:16:00:08
Abigail Acton
Tell me what what does co-creation mean? Yeah. How is it happening in Venice?
00:16:00:10 - 00:16:34:04
Laura Fregolent
Well, co-creation means, collaboration means, to, as I said before, not a top down decision, but, a bottom up process. And so politician, or or the expert, can suggest, can have an idea, can propose an idea, but, have to, to build, the, the concept that we the, the community and with the, the different people involved, the, the, the different, actors, the different stakeholders involved.
00:16:34:05 - 00:16:38:03
Laura Fregolent
The two. Yeah. This is, I think, the way to work.
00:16:38:08 - 00:16:48:18
Abigail Acton
Right? Absolutely. Did you notice that there was some reluctance from planning authorities and from local municipalities to get involved with the decision making process with the local residents?
00:16:48:18 - 00:17:22:09
Laura Fregolent
Well, local authorities, tried to solve, the question or, using the, the tools that they know better. And the tools that they know better is that I decide and, you try to implement it, you community, you, professional practitioners, and, well, so, it's I think it's a cultural process that we have to put on the table.
00:17:22:11 - 00:17:52:24
Laura Fregolent
Yeah, we have to to work about that and, try to, to involve more also also, the administration, the politician, because in the, in, in this research project, the, the, the main topic was to the innovation of governance and how the institution may learn from the experience and may learn from the community.
00:17:53:01 - 00:17:59:13
Abigail Acton
And finally, what did you find? I mean, what what would be the one key takeaway from your project? Do you think?
00:17:59:13 - 00:18:10:10
Laura Fregolent
Well, in a certain way, the idea that, this is possible in a slogan, a citizen can make a difference.
00:18:10:12 - 00:18:15:19
Abigail Acton
And I hope that they're accepting that concept. As you say, it's an ongoing process.
00:18:15:20 - 00:18:16:05
Laura Fregolent
Yeah.
00:18:16:08 - 00:18:23:02
Abigail Acton
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Thank you very much. That's very interesting. Does anyone have any comments or questions for Laura? Yeah. Gonçalo.
00:18:23:07 - 00:18:50:12
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Hi, Laura. Yeah, I'm, I'm very interested in in your in your research. And I have some questions that of course they, they came also from our experience, one is related about, this working with people, so developing other urban planning, ways of doing, did you find also a challenge on the, on the tools that usually architects and urban planners use?
00:18:50:14 - 00:19:15:16
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Did you have to try to find other ways of doing it? So that's, that's one question. And, and the other question is related to the inclusive governance model. Usually I use co-governance. I don't know if this is familiar to you. We have also this technical difference. But I don't know. But someone that I found very interesting in this process is the technicians of the municipality.
00:19:15:16 - 00:19:23:08
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
So we have the, the elected people, but we have the municipal technicians that, in fact are the ones that are in the ground.
00:19:23:10 - 00:19:31:07
Abigail Acton
Can you give me some example, Gonçalo, of the kind of technicians that you're talking about, what sort of area? You mean like people who are responsible for putting in water pipes or.
00:19:31:10 - 00:19:55:10
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Yeah, the people that work in the municipality, at the urbanism department, at the environmental department, at the at the educational department, so that the the technicians, the staff of the municipality, that usually they have a different position from the elected people and sometimes they are allies, other times they are not. What what did you found about this?
00:19:55:12 - 00:20:37:14
Laura Fregolent
Thank you, Gonçalo for your question and and suggestion to, well, co-governance, it's it's difficult. It's difficult because, as you very well explained, there are different level, technical level, there is a problem also of knowledge from the community, for example, not on the technical project and the technical knowledge from the, the, the the community now because, some knowledge is part of some, some parts of the institution and, usually you are not, at the same level of knowledge.
00:20:37:14 - 00:21:12:01
Laura Fregolent
Now, this is a problem. And for that, for example, the community has to be helped, has to be supported by experts, by urban planner, that have a different role, have to try to be involved in the process in a different way. You know, about the tools. Also that is a very, a very important question because we have to find other tools, in particular, thinking about the tools of planning that we use.
00:21:12:03 - 00:21:16:11
Laura Fregolent
But really we have to work about the inclusion.
00:21:16:11 - 00:21:37:09
Abigail Acton
Wonderful. Thank you. Yes, indeed. So it's partly getting people's voices heard. But first of all, those voices have to be raised. In other words, you have to have those voices in the first place, if you're going to talk about how to then have those voices heard. Indeed. And again, we go back to Docker's comments earlier about the right way to approach, to approach certain groups and and to be sensitive to their reactions.
00:21:37:11 - 00:22:01:17
Abigail Acton
Thank you very much, Gonçalo, I'm going to turn to you now. URBiNAT your project focuses on the regeneration and integration of deprived social housing, urban developments through an innovative and inclusive catalog. I could say really range of nature based solutions, and we now know what that means. Thank you very much, Darko. So Gonçalo, nature based solutions have been frequently considered from the environmental science aspect.
00:22:01:17 - 00:22:11:11
Abigail Acton
Now, I know that your project was interested in approaching the concept from a social science direction. Does it matter? Is there such a big difference? Can you explain?
00:22:11:13 - 00:22:41:03
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Thank you, thank you, Abigail. Yeah, I think it's, it tries to bring another dimension to nature based solutions. That was our challenge with URBiNAT project and, and it was welcomed by the, by the Commission, being proposed by a social science institute. So the idea was to understand how the nature based solutions, could be of course, focus on, on the grouping dimension on, on the environmental dimension, but also combine it with the social one.
00:22:41:09 - 00:23:13:16
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Let's say that we need to have green, as Darko explained very well, but we have also to have blue and maybe red our bloods in this, in this solution. So that's what we try to to push with the, with our project. And it was very interesting because many times when we approached the communities, they said, okay, we know that you are going to do very well designed green infrastructures, but we want to understand how we are going to use and we how we are going to take advantage of it.
00:23:13:18 - 00:23:34:09
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
So and this, this really made a difference in our projects that we developed also in several cities, where people try to always link the green to nature with the social dimension, with social activities that can have an educational approach or cultural or whatever.
00:23:34:09 - 00:23:49:07
Abigail Acton
Wonderful. Thank you very much. Can you give us some examples of that then? I know you used the term living labs as well. So tell me a little bit about the idea of taking these concepts and actually putting them on the ground. And making them work.
00:23:49:11 - 00:24:15:06
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Yeah, we we challenge the communities to think about, not green corridors, but healthy corridors. So these healthy corridors was a way of, tried to approach the social dimension, putting the focus on the impact. So all the solutions, they are always designed thinking about the impact they will have on people's life.
00:24:15:06 - 00:24:17:06
Abigail Acton
What's the healthy corridor? What is this?
00:24:17:07 - 00:24:39:10
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
In fact, it's an open concept, because it was, interpreted by the, the different communities in their own way, but it tries to develop a cluster of NBS, a cluster of solutions that need to work together. And this is very important because nature based solutions, usually they don't work by itself. They need to be understood as a cluster.
00:24:39:12 - 00:25:09:07
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
And they always try to combine the the green dimension with the social one, for instance, of course we need European gardens. But, what what can we do with the European gardens? We can have a community kitchen. We can have, social markets. And this works in a circle, you know, so we produce, we we share social markets, we share or we, we sell by with the fair prices and then we eat together.
00:25:09:09 - 00:25:19:15
Abigail Acton
Can you give me some examples of that? Because I think that you mentioned in a previous conversation we had how that helps social inclusion with, minority groups. Can you tell me about that, please? Yeah.
00:25:19:17 - 00:25:45:09
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
This is very important because when, when we, challenge people to, to participate and to, co-create, we we, in fact, we challenge them to be involved in the long process where they identify the needs, they design the solutions, they implement, and they monitor. So it means that they they are involved in these projects for in the case of URBiNAT for six years.
00:25:45:09 - 00:26:09:21
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
And this is quite a challenge. So they need to be motivated. They need to understand that they will win not only direct profits, as they will have access for better vegetables, for instance, but they will also be part of a community. And many times, for instance, in these social markets, people don't sell almost anything, but they are there because they want to be part of the community.
00:26:09:21 - 00:26:35:00
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
They want to build something together. They want to belong to, to these neighborhoods that in our case they were social housing neighbors. So they were deprived. In this sense, there was a lack of justice, of inequalities, but they they have a strong sense of belonging. So they want to be part of this community, and they want the community to grow and to face their challenge, this social challenge together.
00:26:35:02 - 00:26:38:22
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
And they see nature as an opportunity to make this chain.
00:26:38:22 - 00:26:49:09
Abigail Acton
Lovely, and I believe you mentioned that, you know, obviously people come with their own strengths. So I think you mentioned one time that there was a lady who used to come regularly who was very good at cooking. Can you tell me about that story?
00:26:49:11 - 00:27:13:11
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Yes. These ladies that they are, they are in fact, the power of these communities. We see women. We have also a beautiful story because I don't know, we have we had a revolution in Portugal in 74. And we always say that the revolution was made by women. So the men were at the war and in the colonial times and women were fighting for their houses.
00:27:13:13 - 00:27:38:10
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
And this is very strong in Portuguese communities, but we see it across the world. So people, women, they really want to change their neighborhood more than men. In fact, and this is very interesting. So when they came to participate in this process, they, they bring their knowledge and they want to share their knowledge. So there is a kind of generosity also with, with the community.
00:27:38:10 - 00:27:53:10
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
So this, this idea of cooking is very strong when we have participatory dynamics, along this process. So cooking is becoming a way of engaging people and being part of a transformative process.
00:27:53:16 - 00:28:09:00
Abigail Acton
Yeah. And also brings in, I would imagine, the migrant community, as you mentioned to me in an earlier conversation, you have a a lady who comes and cooks regularly at one of these green garden markets that you were saying and offering her skills and her her culture to other people. I think it's a wonderful story.
00:28:09:01 - 00:28:33:13
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Yes. People in these community events and when we are working in social housing areas, usually we have people with different backgrounds with different origins. They cooking is a way of bringing that culture to the events, to share also the culture and the way of talking about their roots and, and make their roots presence in the community.
00:28:33:15 - 00:28:36:12
Abigail Acton
Yeah. Wonderful. So social cohesion big.
00:28:36:13 - 00:29:09:01
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Yeah. Yeah. And the living labs that you mentioned, they are very important because in fact, the we always understood labs as a, as an academic structure. So the idea of the living labs is, is moving this academic structure to the communities. So it's, it's in fact a way of creating a laboratory in the community that will not only work in these projects that in the case of Urbino, but they will have they are empowered to understand how they can develop future projects together.
00:29:09:03 - 00:29:48:09
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
So it's it's very important because in this life, in the labs that we activate, we establish connections, for instance with municipalities. So there are contact points with the university, the with the municipality, with companies. So these kind of relations, networks, they stay in the community and they are activated in the in the future project. So, this is the big challenge of the living labs is to empower communities to design, to co-create new solutions after the projects leave, leave, because this is always a challenge when we leave the communities, what stays there and this idea of the living lab, I think it's the most powerful one.
00:29:48:09 - 00:29:51:19
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
It's a challenge. But it's the most powerful one.
00:29:51:24 - 00:30:13:13
Abigail Acton
That's excellent. Thank you so much. You explain that really well, Gonzalo, I appreciate that. And the work you're doing is so interesting. There are some other ideas as well as the gardens. I know that you were involved in green amphitheaters and pedestrian bridges that link areas together in ways that were previously, you know, how to navigate across large roads and all the rest of it, just making our cities better places in which to live.
00:30:13:13 - 00:30:18:24
Abigail Acton
Thank you for that. Does anyone have any questions for Gonçalo? Yeah. Darko. What would you like to ask?
00:30:18:24 - 00:30:42:09
Darko Ferčej
Yes. Thank you. I think that our projects are quite similar, and I was wondering who you were also mentioning before. What do you think? How, you and also us, could approach this living lab to live also after the project life. How could we engage people after the project has ended?
00:30:42:11 - 00:31:12:13
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for the question. In fact, it's related with the co-governance model that I was exploring a little bit with Laura because the co-governance model that we tried to develop, it was based on on a structure of working groups. So very early in the project we established these working groups and these working groups that are climatically related, according to the people's wish, they start to create relations between them.
00:31:12:15 - 00:31:38:09
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
And, and they not only develop proposals for URBiNAT, but they start to develop other proposals. And in fact, they made other applications because they want the projects to, to continue. So they start to, to apply for, for instance, participatory budget at the municipalities, they start to apply for a national finance for NGOs’ projects.
00:31:38:11 - 00:32:00:19
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
So in fact, these working groups, when the project leaves, they continue to work together. In fact, most of them, they are activated by different NGOs that sometimes they say the big thing of URBiNAT was to put us working together because we we knew that we exist. We are in the same territory, but we didn't work together. And now we work together.
00:32:00:21 - 00:32:30:20
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
So they they only say that this is all right, we win. And what we see is after the project ended because the project ended last year, we see that they are still working together to continue developing, for instance, the social market. It's still going on, but they are now involved in other projects together. People for instance, NGOs that, are related with health care, others that are related with urban gardens or cultural activities.
00:32:30:22 - 00:32:37:10
Gonçalo Canto Moniz
Now they are doing their projects. And this is I think it means that the the lab is is alive.
00:32:37:15 - 00:32:53:09
Abigail Acton
The living lab is living. That's excellent. Thank you so much, all of you, for your wonderful work and and interesting insights, both from the practical element through to the theory and then back again to the practical. Much, much appreciated. Thank you very much for being with us today.
00:32:53:10 - 00:32:54:03
Darko Ferčej
Thank you Abigail.
00:32:54:06 - 00:32:56:21
Laura Fregolent
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you're very welcome.
00:32:56:22 - 00:32:58:04
Abigail Acton
Take care. Goodbye.
00:32:58:04 - 00:32:58:19
Darko Ferčej
Goodbye.
00:32:58:21 - 00:33:02:15
All
Goodbye.
00:33:02:17 - 00:33:26:08
Abigail Acton
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Abigail Acton
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Rethinking urban development and planning
About three quarters of the population in the EU are urbanites. Are you living in an inclusive area, with parks and public spaces designed in consultation with local residents? Or is that something that seems out of your reach? Maybe your experience of city life is less comfortable. By 2050 approximately 80 % of Europe’s population is projected to be urban, and given the concentrated population and infrastructure, cities are especially vulnerable to environmental stresses. We have already seen the impact of pollution, both of noise and emissions, heatwaves, flash floods and soil contamination. Global temperature change will exacerbate these issues. The impact on biodiversity and the consumption of natural resources are also reasons for why it’s time to rethink our approach to urban development and planning, to create greener cities that are more equitable and cohesive. Nature-based solutions, or NBSs, co-creation, living labs – what do these terms mean and why are they important? This episode’s three guests, all of whom benefited from research and innovation funding, can explain these concepts and how they can contribute to well-being in our cities. Darko Ferčej(opens in new window) is head of the EU project Unit within the Slovenian non-profit institute, E-zavod(opens in new window). His area of interest is transforming policy theories into practical changes that benefit people’s lives in urban environments, which he explored through the UPSURGE project. Laura Fregolent(opens in new window) is professor of Urban Planning at the University of Venice(opens in new window) in Italy. Over the years she has investigated the processes of urban transformation and sprawl, and the social impact of housing dynamics. She coordinated the NEIGHBOURCHANGE project. Gonçalo Canto Moniz(opens in new window) is a professor of Architecture and researcher at the Centre for Social Studies at the University of Coimbra(opens in new window), in Portugal. He is fascinated by the way co-creation of nature-based solutions within our cities can promote more inclusive urban neighbourhoods, a concept he pursued in the URBiNAT project.
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